Louis Theroux A Place for Paedophiles

Video Transcript:

Are you a pedophile? Well, that's a very controversial subject as far as identifying a pedophile. I say that I am, it suggests that I still have the interest and I still am practicing that. If I say X pedophile, then of course that means that somebody who has done it at one time had that interest and no longer does, and that's why I classify myself as. With everything in society telling you that this is a parent behavior, did that not affect your thinking at all? I mean, you must have known that was a huge... It was looked down upon as far as the legal aspect. I didn't know what the law specifically said. Do you understand that there's people out there who would watch this program in here that you had less to the six-year-old or seven-year-old? And there's a large number of people who would want to kill you for that. Yes, I believe there are. I don't want to judge those people, but one wrong... Or two wrongs don't make a right. This is Coalinga, a mental hospital in California built to contain and treat the state's most serious sex offenders. What was your original conviction for? I was committed for a lunar city of sex on two minor children, females, ages 10 and 12. These men all served prison time for child molestation and rape. But since completing their sentences, instead of being released, they've been diagnosed with sexual disorders and sent here against their will. Okay, let's be real clear. I want this on record. I am not now attracted to children. I don't seek out the affections of children, nor do I want to have sex with children. Is that clear? Coalinga has been hailed by some as the best solution to the problem of pedophilia. It's also been accused of being a kind of prison in disguise. For the first time, it had opened its doors to a documentary crew. The end of the story Around 800 patients are confined at Coalinga. Hospital policies to refer to them as individuals and address them by their surnames. One of the individuals in treatment is Mr. Rigby. A former high school sports coach served 10 years in prison for abusing some of his students. Instead of being released, he was committed to hospital. He let me see his file, and agreed to talk openly about his crimes in the company of one of his therapists. Are you doing Mr. Rigby? Yes. Are you Mr. Rigby's social workers? Yes. So you have a pretty close relationship? Do you work closely together? We work fairly close. I say I'm every month at his team and we have groups together. How long have you been working together, you two? Well, no, no, no, for a word, but he's almost a year and a half now. Since being at Coalinga. How do you feel it's been going with Mr. Rigby? Excellent. He's doing quite well. He does everything that's asked of him. And he's just... You can't have a better client. Any challenge he's up to face. This is your room, Mr. Rigby? This is our dorm. There are four men. They share the dorm. This is my room area here. Is it your area? Yes. So you've got some pictures of classical statues there? Yes. And that is explained. Pardon me? What is that all about? Only my appreciation for art and culture. That seems to be an interest in the male physical form. Yes. Yes. I'm an open gay, homosexual man here. I don't flaunt it, but I admire the male figure. So it kind of something I identify with. Why other roommates might have pictures of surfing girls. We have an artist in the room. So each kind of have our own unique taste? This seems a little risky. That's quite close to the prohibited. I think it's a little bit of my love for ballet. And I suppose it has some male eroticism to it. Well, a youngish man could be 16, could be 18, could be... Oh, I suppose that has potential. Yes. I don't look at it. I don't look at them as teenagers. I look at them as ballet performers. They all look very mature to me. It's okay, Jo, to have imagery that has a slightly erotic omitone that's in the area of what the offenses were. Well, I don't know. I've never seen that fishery before, but they look like a belt to me. So what was the question again? I'm sorry. Is that okay? Is that okay? Yes, as long as they're... I'll be age. That's okay. You know, one of the things I was reading in your file was that you'd started something... Or there had been something called the Togas. A club which... That you kind of organized or ran in which... Well, maybe you should say what it is. Well, the club was on basis of an athletic club. They had the problem with it and then up with the sexual initiation. Which I encouraged. Which I certainly found a rousing. And definitely was a way of sexualizing voice through that initiation. These boys aged. Those boys aged primarily 11 and 12 years of age. 11 to 12 and what was the initiation? It was sticking their penis in a tube. And it was a method of getting through their boundaries of modesty. But allowed you to sexualize them to allow myself to receive gratification. And you encouraged them to orally copulate each other? No. They didn't do that. That isn't a clinic. That wasn't with the Togas. There were two other boys that I encouraged to do that. Yes. Given that this was part of your thinking at one time. How will you... if and when you get out, how will you guard against that creeping back into your thinking? By guarding my environment. By understanding, again, our high risk. And of course, my number one high risk is being around children. And I can respect that. I don't know how he expects society to accept me in the long run. But I'd like to show him I can be a better citizen. How are you? How are you doing? How are you doing? Much of the treatment at Coalinger takes place in group sessions. Like I said, one of the scientists of the preoccupation is total sexual outlet of seven or more orgasms a week. For extended period of time, found in one study. So these are examples of the too much, the interest. Individuals are encouraged to open up about their crimes and their ongoing thoughts and fantasies in an attempt to recognize and repress any deviant urges. For one thing, I'm reducing the sexual content of any materials that I produce. I'm also masturbating less and I'm working on trying to extend that period to be longer between masturbations. You can find notice. One of the facilitators of these groups is Ernie Marshall. You're a social worker here and can you tell me, I mean, you get to know the guys under your care pretty well, would you say? That's your job in a way. Yes, I do. I, the people that are, I read their records and I read their charts. I happen to be a hands-on type guy. Do you have to like them? You don't have to. Because in a way we're talking about the class of people that most people would regard as, you know, the least likeable of anyone in the world. I don't define people by something they've done. So one part of all these guys here is the prior behavior, the sexual behavior. But there's a whole piece of a human being that's not that. I mean, I, I kind of, I'm grappling with a bit too, because I can, someone who's, I'm attempting to form a kind of a relationship for the sake of forming it. And also constantly aware that people at home will think, you know, why are you being nice to that guy, given what he did? You know, and then if that's what I am thinking, it must be, you know, in a way, isn't that something you have to deal with as well? I think all people are, everybody, I try to find something likeable. In fact, these guys have, a lot of them have a lot of likeable things. And I think the part of them that are unlikable is something they didn't choose. No one woke up and said, I'm going to be, no one grew up in the V age 5 and said, I'm going to grow up and be a pedophile. I'm going to grow up and be a rapist. No one chooses it. This is a back area that contains a vocational education in the music center, and there's a specific area that we call, the Golden Gate Center, which is an area that's reserved for individuals that are involved in the program here. And this is the Golden Gate Center. Okay. Hi. Here's our musician. Me and this gentleman share a common musical interest, so we have something to talk about. Can we play the guitar as well? No, we are grateful dad fans. Really? Yeah. So we may have gone to concerts at the same concert 20 years ago, it turns out. How about that? And what are you, what are you, what are you in for? What are you, what are you doing here? What am I, are you doing here today? Well, no, what do you, how come you've been? I mean, what's my incarceration, recent from the time the child was born? It does, it, the different levels of sexual contact, not, some had no sexual contact whatsoever on some of it was just like talking dirty and those sorts of things, but it was nonetheless violation of their, their space, their soul, their sexuality. How does it feel talking about it now? It's embarrassing, uncomfortable. Nothing I'm proud of, that's for damn sure. But I did it. Do you feel at this point you've got it under control that you're, you're no longer a risk to the public? I believe so, I believe I could be released, but with the, with the understanding that I would continue in therapy and therapy out there, that's something that I would not want to do without that kind of support. What's likely to happen here, will he get released anytime soon? I believe that he will successfully reintegrate into society actually, in my opinion of Mr. Ruggers. He presents his committed to absence, I have no reason to doubt that. He presents his committed to abstinence from abuse of behavior. Right. He presents his committed to, you mean that? Well, that's my little way of saying, that's what he says. I feel a little little, I don't want to offend you, you know? But that's what he says, and then I added, I have no reason to doubt that. There's no data to say that he's lying to me without that. So I do believe he will be returning to the community. There are five phases of treatment at Coalinger. Patients are judged on their progress in therapy through regular tests. These are either polygraphs, lie detector tests, or a form of sexual test called the PPG. This is Abel Vera, and here he's our PPG technician. How do you do? Louis, nice to meet you. He's responsible for administering the PPG, and the results I help him interpret and write up. What does PPG stand for? It stands for a penal polythesmograph assessment. It's a phallometric assessment. Basically, it is literally measuring the penis size in terms of how aroused a man is. Correct. Do you have an extra gauge? This gauge is clean, it's brand new. It's very soft, and it's filled with mercury inside. The individual places this gauge on the shaft of the penis filo. You can feel it. Like that. Yeah. And then they're shown a mix of normative stimuli to consenting adult, either males or females or a combination, as well as deviant stimuli, rape scenes involving adult women, as well as audio scenes involving children, or still slides or videos involving sexually suggestive scenes with children. Not actual child porn. No, they're not nude. So they're clad in bathing suits, and it's sexually suggestive, such as playing in a pool, playing with water, a hose, eating fruit, things like that. Do they sit in here when the thing is going on next? No, I don't know. I'm sure. You sit in here. Where does this go? So that's a clean chuck. And what happens as the individual is asked to sit in this chair, they're also asked to slide the table over them and put their hands on top of the table, because one classic way of being deceptive is to put the gauge on your fingers, or it's one method of determining whether they're answering honestly to the PVG stimuli. There's lots of reasons why an individual might be deceptive during this test, and so we have different types of ways to reduce any deceptive activities. Though in theory, coalinga exists to rehabilitate and release sex offenders, in the last 10 years, out of the hundreds of individuals detained, only 13 have ever been approved for release in this way. I had the opportunity to meet one, Mr. Lamb, while being given a tour by the hospital's head psychologist, Dr. Dorazio. Some guys check out some supplies during the day and they do artwork, and they work on projects back here, and here we have Mr. Lamb, who's working on his projects. So, Mr. Lancer's the BDC, and we have him check in with you. Good, thank you. I'm Louis from the BBC. Great, great. What do you work on here? I'm just putting finishing touches on a craft ferrous wheel that I just concluded working with, and this company that puts out paper products, and I'm trying to put them together as best I can with the limited resources, but it's been a challenge, and it really works. When it's finished, it's a good sign that the thing has been done well. Dr. Dorazio said you're waiting for housing in the outside world? Yes, I've been ordered out by a judge for more than a year now, and I think just the wait for housing can be so intense sometimes, because they really have to search hard and long for a place that'd be suitable. And the problem is that people in the community have expressed they don't, they just don't want a sex offender living among them, is that it? That's the issue. It seems to be the problem, is getting one place, who wants the next door? However, we try to instill upon them that this program has changed this, and we're capable of truly living among people again, and certainly a lot of doctors endorse that, and we can carry out with this type of assurance that it's not just us going out there. We're not selling ourselves, but the program will help us sell ourselves as well. Has the Conditional Release Agency given you an estimate of how many properties that they've looked at or they've solicited for people to rent to you? They have given me an idea of somewhere close to 1100 places that have been looked into. So we have our fingers crossed. Well, there's a thousand. So far, no landlord has stuck with it. There has been one decline from a judge where there was a family group home setting that was within the 2,000 feet, and it was found out late in the decision. The other one was that the landlord was threatened actually verbally, and left rattlesnakes on his porch. So it was physical thread, and the person just didn't want to hang in with that. What was the nature of your offense? My offense was molestation, primarily underage male, and there were approximately 40 to 50 victims, some of them in the teens, with a few convictions, actual convictions as adult. And so it's harder somewhat than some of the other types of cases molestations are certainly looked upon more horribly. So I can certainly empathize with the public's thoughts and concerns over the fears. Did he say 50 victims? Yeah, he estimates about 50 victims, male victims, child molestations. So we're talking about a deeply entrenched... No, he was convicted of... No, he was not convicted of 50 victims, but he's come to admit and take accountability for 50 victims. And certainly was his sexual preference for a long time. We're talking about a well-engrained pattern of fantasies and urges around the objects of boys. So he really has come a long way. Very interesting. Very interesting. How soon do you think you might actually find somewhere? We've been helping for the last year that the housing opportunity would come up, and it's just very, very difficult. Most people are okay with return of sex offenders in some form to the community, but just not their backyard, or their community, or their development. It's very, very hard to place sexual offenders. The end of the story Coalinger cost almost $400 million to build. To keep each patient costs a further $200,000 a year. So it's surprising that the vast majority of men boycott therapy, viewing it as window dressing for a place whose real intention is to keep them confined in the city. To keep them confined indefinitely. Most prefer to try their chances with legal appeals. In fact, many more individuals have gone out this way than through the phased therapy program. Who are we about to meet? We're about to meet Mr. Kitchens. He is one of the 70% of the individuals who's declining to participate in the Sex Fund-specific Tutoring Program. Okay. Is that a nutty mount there? Yep. How you doing? One in Mr. Kitchens. Hi, how do you do? I'm Louis. Nice to meet you. You're Mr. Kitchens. We're going to go through here, I think. So you're not in the program? Is that because you feel you don't have a problem? No, it... That's hard to answer. I've committed my crimes. I've never denied committing my crimes. May I ask what those were? One was a friend of mine's child. We had been staying in a motel me and my wife. And I was babysitting at the time, and I was under the influence at the time. And some touching was involved. A little? Six and seven. What was it to you? I'm not sure if the child was six or seven. Between six and seven years old. And in 1989, I was convicted of the same offense. Lundler's 30th sex with a child in age 14. If there were other cases that didn't come to trial? No. So you were saying you've only been aroused by children those two times? Those are the only two times when molesting a child has made you... Or the idea of it has made you aroused and seem gratifying to you. I guess so. That doesn't seem likely to me. What happens? What's going on on me unconstructedly or unconstantly? I couldn't tell you. It's very possible that I have an attraction to children that I don't know about. Do you know who and what you're attracted to in general in your life? Well, you know... Yeah, I do. I do know what I'm attracted to now. I know a lot more about myself now than I ever did 20 years ago. That's children or not children. Okay, let's be real clear. I want this on record. I am not now attracted to children. I don't seek out the affections of children nor do I want to have sex with children. Is that clear? Is that clear? No. Please answer the question. No. That's not clear. No, because you had just said that it was possible you had an attraction to children that you weren't aware of. At one time... You may have an attraction to children that you're not aware of. Did you know that? She could have an attraction to children. Because they're not aware of it. I find it hard to believe that you could have an attraction that you're completely not aware of. Because we go through life as sexual beings knowing what things we find attractive and what things we do. Well... I can't answer that. I'm feeling a lot of intensity. There is. And the energy in this corner of the room, it's palpable. So, let's check in. Are you okay? I mean, you can take a couple deep breaths. When I answer a question clearly, it kind of works for me a little to have somebody tell me I didn't. At this point, Mr. Kitchens, he's in the kind of catch-22 where you're just sort of warehousing him really. Since he won't enter the program, he's not likely that he'll get out. Yeah, that's true. We're housing him as well as the other 70% of the individuals who are in the program. Well, she's walking. I began to experience daily life at Coalinger. One of the striking things for the outsider is the surprisingly high level of comfort on offer. I had to remind myself that the men have already served their time in prison and that if they weren't here, they would be living in the outside world. Though they've all been diagnosed with psychological and sexual disorders, a majority feel that they are completely sane. What was your one-prote you hear, my ass? I was here for sexual nature crimes, right? Mine was in 1988 when I got convicted and accused and convicted in. I was 22 at that time. It was a total of less charge, which I've been protesting ever since. You say you didn't do it? I've been protesting it and I did not. I did not. You're saying you didn't do it? I know I didn't do it. And so you don't feel you have a mental disorder? I feel that most of the people here do not have a mental disorder. Whether they did or didn't do their crime, I'm not one to judge. It was a criminal act for most of these guys. I mean, it wasn't a mental disorder act. This is where the problem lies with the law. When the time came for me to see treatment up close, one of the first sessions I attended turned out to be something I'd inadvertently triggered. I guess we can start by talking about what you or your thoughts about some of the issues we've brought up in our last meeting. Well, the issues were fair. Considering when Louis actually saw the picture, it actually was just kind of shocking of his perception. Because even I didn't perceive it like that. And then afterwards, I actually took the picture down and put myself in Louis picture and he's a guest here to hospital. He knows my affinity in history. And he saw something that looked potentially adolescent. And that's against my nature. It was kind of shocking to me of his perception. And that's what bothered me the most. It's two things. One is the tightness of the tics and the youthful look in his face. His face is actually very, very boyish. And that's my perception. I would have to agree with Louis on that. And I think if this were just hanging in an art museum, they're right. But Mr. Rigby, you're someone who has a history of sex offenses. This person could be 18, could be 15, could be 24. And I think also the defensiveness and the measure that you went to to contact your sources, if you will, might I say to the camera that you contacted the... New York City Ballet. He contacted the New York City Ballet for validation about the actual age of this particular person. It's a painting, though. It's a little focusing for Mr. Ballet Jean on his retirement. Is it Coriola? Correct. Yeah, apparently that's Peter Martin. It became one of the great... So we will post? Yes. Well, everyone who represents a person in Mr. Valentine's Life. So it's fascinating. And I did that. You're right. It'd be defensive, and to almost validate myself. And I realized I didn't really have to go to that step. It kind of made me feel, well, I think Heavens, I wasn't looking at an adolescent. But it doesn't change your perspective. It doesn't change the identity I wish to convey to you and anyone else who knows that as a sex offender, and they don't want me to look at an adolescence. A little later, and to illustrate the importance of patient honesty, Dr. Dorazio had arranged a debrief and individual about his test results. Hi, Mr. Price. How are you doing? You remember us? Good to see you again. Mr. Price is also a pedophile in treatment. And though it'd been making good progress, Dr. Dorazio had told me there'd been a recent setback. There was an issue about your polygraph. Is that right? What was the issue? Can you explain? You left in the middle of the... The issue was that I was going to lie, and I didn't want to do that. So I left. How are you going to lie? Well, I had some things that I was covering up at the time that didn't want known. And I felt that I had reasons for that, and I realized the reasons were not as important as I thought they were. You were going to, in effect, try and cheat the test. Is that right? And how are we going to do that? I was going to put any perspiration on my hands. So that part of the test would be invalid. We should have had. Well, some victims I had were relatives, and some were more serious than I'd said they were. And I was afraid of prosecution if I gave out enough information about them. A lot of discovered crimes. Oh, yeah, they were all discovered. What compelled you to make the decision to be deceptive in the program? Self-protection. I felt completely exposed. I had no orientation. I had no idea what they were going to do. I don't even know what they were going to ask. I could have the photograph next month. I still haven't had an orientation. I haven't asked me for an orientation. Nobody said there's orientations. Let me just, let me point out what you're doing right now. I'm trying to offer you some constructive feedback, and your defenses are getting up, and you're starting to finger-point. I haven't even started to finger-point. So don't go in there. I think we better leave it alone. Let my clinicians deal with it. This is not my clinician. What could make you maybe feel better with interacting with myself and the BBC in this piece right now? Why don't you stay away from interacting with you at all? I don't understand why you're here. Maybe somebody can tell me. Well, I talked to Doral Zeus. Is there a review with me and the BBC? You know, if you want to be there for a background, I guess that makes sense, but why are you asking me questions at all? So you'd feel more comfortable if no provider was here that you could have your time with the BBC on your own. At this point, yes. Why is that? But it's mainly you that I don't want here right now because of the attitude I'm hearing. Well, what happens now? Well, I'm not sure. I'm kind of at a loss of Mr. Price came to this place right now, and I'm not sure what's going on. Maybe we'll sort of draw a line under this for now if that's okay with both you. I think you do. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Price. I found that quite odd. How was that for you? I felt maybe that would be upsetting for you. A little bit. Well, I think I feel a little bit of disappointment about Mr. Price's decisions. I think that... What about personal? I mean, it felt like that was a kind of... I get a lot of that. I get a lot of that. It's one of the job hazards of being a clinician in this work. If you go to the places where you believe that the patient needs to go to in their treatment, there's going to be resistance because they're very uncomfortable places within the person. He became very almost abusive and aggressive. That's a very small microcosm of how he might be in the community if he's faced with similar situations and similar stressors. You know, he might have people like me in various degrees in his life. And if that gets him unsettled, then he might act out towards that person or could be a children. One evening, I stayed late at the hospital to attend one of their regular social events. What's the occasion today? Halloween party. Every month we have activities. We have like a total of fast karaoke nights like next month. And then we have December when I have a Christmas party. So every month something is happening and then every month we have birthday parties so we give out cake and ice cream and gifts. You were in prison before this, I mentioned. Is this something you do at prison as well? No. No, you don't get that much at prison. How do you like it in here? I don't like it here at all. I don't like it in locked up. Compared with prison? I don't. You think it's worse than prison? I like prison. Why? Because you know where you stand. You know the ground you're on. You know the responsibilities. You know the respect you got coming, honestly. Not this, honestly. And there's a code. And there's a code. You know what's going on? You're doing life just in case you do commit another crime. That's not justice. If that's the case, like everybody up in the society, because tomorrow I might get in the car and run somebody over. If I can ask you, you were here because there must be some sexual effects in your district. I had a date rate. A date rate. You guys want to try something? Show me if it tastes good. Thank you. See if that's strong enough or different. It tastes quite good. I made another appointment with Mr. Lamb. Our first conversation had made an impression on me. And I wanted to know more about how he felt he'd changed. Is there still a degree of attraction to small children? At this point, there isn't. And I can safely and feel good about that accomplishment by saying that. And part of the reason is, I chose to have, personally, chose to have a castration. Very few people have gone that route. But it's relieved a great deal of the invasiveness of my deviancy. And allowed me to think and get into my soul and my head as to what I really did in the hurt. We're not talking about chemical castrations, physical operation. It was physical. I started with a chemical to seek that kind of relief if there was possible. And when I started taking those shots, I said, you know, I need this. And I chose the physical to make it permanent. What no one can really understand is why you would think it would, at any time it would have been okay for you to molester child, especially when he was young and seven years old. How could you have thought that that was something that it was okay to do? We do talk about this in our therapy groups. How can you do this? And so forth, what we've answered that on and on again, with things like, we're in an obsessive moment. Things have gone wrong in life. And we've had early sexualization. We've admitted, molested ourselves. We've had lots of sexual encounters in early youth. And it's just something that seems to be necessary to pursue when things go wrong again. In that mode, at that time, did it seem as though it was okay with the children that the children would wanted? Did it seem as to you that that was something they were seeking out? No. I changed their normal life to make mine something for that moment of fun. It's hard. And I can see that now. It's hindsight. And in that moment, I'm nothing. I'm someone else. I'm doing what I want, regardless of who is hurt. And that's where we've come to a place in the full line of treatment to see that, and to really work with that as, you know, we can't go there again. This is tremendous pain. What would you say to people who saw you now and said, well, he's saying the right things now? How do we know that he's changed? Why should we be willing to take that risk of allowing him back into the community? Coming from the source, there may not be much credibility. But I can only say that in the last few years of the improved therapy and the responses from doctors and the work that I've done, the phrase that fits his actions speak louder than words. I can tell you anything. But if my actions show otherwise, then I'm not credible. So I have to act well to be well and then to be talked of in a better life. So it's going to have to be proof in a pudding. Where are you little star? Where are you? Where are you? By now I'd been in the hospital for several days. More than ever I was struck by the strangeness of the pleasant surroundings, and the fact that many, if not most of these men, would be living this way for the rest of their lives. You're renting out DVDs? Yeah, what we do is for the point exchange program, we rent out DVDs and so on. What's the point of you got there? What have you got there? We've got all sorts of... We've got a lot of stuff going on here. The Dippity story, seven years into bed. Catch me if you can. I was also becoming aware of a growing disgruntlement over the focus of the documentary. Numerous individuals had approached me complaining I was spending too much time with a small minority involved in treatment. How would you feel about spending the rest of your life in this hospital? Well, I don't like it, I really have no choice. This is the most corrupt program, okay, that I've ever seen in my life, okay? The face program is nothing more than a sham that's here to hold us indefinitely. This is nothing but warehouse, let's look at the big money they get. They get $200,000 a year for keeping us in here. Okay, nobody wants this out there on the streets. Among those who came up to me was a man who'd exhausted his legal appeals and whose unwillingness to embrace treatment now meant that he would die at Coalinga. His name was Mr. Yarn. How'd he do, Louis? Nice to meet you. George is my middle name and that's generally where I go. Okay, George. Yes. Are you in the face program? No, I'm not. For what reason? As many times as I have been asked that question, there's probably as many answers that are different. But the most important thing is there is nobody that can tell what's going on inside my head, period. Nobody knows. What about you? I do. And I can tell you, I can tell anybody, I can tell your audience that I'm not a threat to anybody other than I'm not a threat. So you feel like at this point you don't need any kind of treatment? I haven't done anything to any of these people so far. And there's little tiny, I'll do respect. There's individuals here that look like little kids that would probably be great targets. But it's like, why? In here? Absolutely. There's an RT running around here. It looks like she's 12 years old. What's an RT? Oh, rehabilitation therapist. You know, sitting look at her and sometimes I think she's a plant just to see if somebody would go off. And it's just in passing thought I used to sit and think that. But she's just a person. Can you see that because the Okra is so serious that the community at large in the state as an institution might feel that you need some treatment? Would you go into treatment if you had a headache? Oh, I'm just curious. Would you? And I'm not trying to trap you or anything. The point was already time where I actually physically raped a kid. Did you see anything like that? No, you did not. My big thing was master Asian. Big thing. That was my big thing. I mean, in a sense that the sex acts that you performed or were involved with children would constitute a form of rape, wouldn't they? I mean, wasn't there a nine-year-old girl who performed a sex act upon you? She gave me, she used her hand and yes, she did. In the note that said oral copulation. That was my, in the very 1979 one, I said I'm looking for it. That was the other's true. Did you, you got your son to masturbate you? Yes, no. No, I didn't. He was in the same room while I was masturbating. Did I encourage them to do the same thing as I did? And you masturbated him as well? No. In the notes it did. I know I said, I know that. Given that you did these terrible things and you found them arousing, that implies that that's part of your makeup that to find those kinds of nights arousing. At the time that it's correct. And at the time. But you're asking me to believe that that's stopped, that's stopped being your orientation at the point. Sure. How, how, how would you say that ended? For the simple fact that when I said, my kids were like this tall and here I am treating them like crap. Okay? Now they're this big. And they're not only this big but they all of a sudden they got this mind and all of a sudden they're not just a kid. They're actually people. And I never thought for a second that these little kids were actually people. They are little people. They have feelings, they have desires, they have wants, they need to be loved. Is there anything that could induce you to enter into the phase program? Promise me that I go home. Promise me that they will show that anybody that goes through that phase program will never ever do anything again. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. The way you're going to do it. This is our divine. Come by and shine to make this life divine. I was close to the end of my time at Coalingo. One of the things that had struck me, given the awfulness of their crimes, was how relatively normal the people in the phase program could come across. But I was also aware that having a plausible manner was one of the qualities that had enabled them to groom their victims. And I was keen not to be taken in. I went back to see Mr Rigby. He just had the results of his latest clinical tests. I'd had the impression during our time together that he'd been honest with me. I wondered whether I could trust my instincts. What happened? Whether we're two polygraphs, the sexual history and the thoughts and fantasies. And to pass the polygraph here, you actually have to get 100%. You have to pass every question. And it's important because it proves my state of abstinence. That I'm dedicated that I don't look at pictures or movies and think deviant arousels or still think of kids as sexual objects. At this point, could you say that Mr Rigby is cured? Would you say you're cured? No. I'd like to answer that for now. I would say, at this point, frankly, I am going to recommend his primary facility refers him for staffing, which means that he will be going to a panel and that will be led by the medical director that will determine his suitability for treatment in the community. And I do believe that he is treatable in the community at this time. You know, one of the things that's been weird and difficult for me is also balancing the idea of the treatment that exists here with the very real and understandable grievance that people feel here that this is not a just or legitimate institution. So how does that all balance up in your mind, Ernie? If I was in Alan's shoes, and I made a deal with the government that said, if you sign here on this piece of paper, we will put you in the print of ten years and you'll have parole. If you do, right? And I did that, and then at the end of it, the government comes back and says, we're changing the deal. I would be outraged, and I would feel like my constitutional rights were violated. In our society, there's a lot of people that want to, you know, sexual offending is a loaded thing to me, too. I mean, if I think about, I think your behavior was awful, and you already know that. And I'm not saying, you know, I don't think there's no, we've had this discussion ever. Certainly. And I'm pretty skilled at separating that from judging this human being. Not everybody in our society is. Is that why this facility exists? Do you think because of people's inability to separate, you know, because of that sense of outrage? I honestly believe that this is my opinion that there's probably a significant component of that. 16? A little later, I was on my way to see Mr. Price. Since his heated exchange with Dr. Dorazio over his polygraph results, he'd evidently had some second thoughts. And he'd got word to me that he wanted to make amends. We had an interesting conversation yesterday, and it seemed like you got a little annoyed with Dr. Dorazio. How are you feeling today? I'm better. Some residual feelings, but I also, you know, have taken stock of what was going on, what I was doing, and you know, realized what I was unacceptable to us in appropriate. And basically, what you got on film is a patient having an emotional dysfunction, which is basically not regulating his emotions very well. Will the incident yesterday have set Mr. Price back in his treatment in any way, or in the face program? Could we take it into account in some way? Well, I think that the team will process... That decision is not mine to make. I think that ultimately, that incident will serve as a great spring word for Mr. Price to grow, and that will be the elements of great change for him. However, if you do that stuff with other people, there's not going to be all of this processing and understanding. There's going to be, okay, you're out of here, buddy, or even worse, a formal complaint of that kind of stuff. The way he interacted yesterday could have led to a formal complaint if there were any different contexts. Sure, absolutely. It was a vulnerable assault. It was actually probably a penal code violation of some sort. And I think a jury, you know, with the testimony that would come forward, probably would convict me or that. Mr. Price didn't raise his voice as far as I remember. And he wasn't directly abusive. Was he... Would you say that, I mean, what was the worst thing that he did? Well, he didn't raise his voice, and he didn't act out aggressively physically in any way. I think that there was some purposefully intentional demeaning statements and some belittling statements, and some... He made some statements to suggest that I wasn't being sincere and what I was offering. And when you tell someone that you don't believe what they're saying as sincere, you're basically cutting them off as a credible source. So you're eliminating me from the conversation in the room, and that, to me, is a form of abuse. And I just want to clarify for you in case... I want to clarify for you in case you have any concern in your mind or any worry about this. I am okay with myself, and I don't feel less than... or I don't feel upset about the situation that occurred. If anything, it's given me more empathy towards you and more awareness. And I do not allow myself to be victimized by you in that sense, so I will not be carrying that with me. So know that I'm okay with it. I had one last appointment with Mr. Lamb. I'd heard he had a new housing option in his sights. I realized I'd started to feel he might be a changed person. But since our last meeting, I'd also had an opportunity to see his file for the first time, and I'd been shocked by the details of the abuse. I'd begun to worry I hadn't questioned him closely enough to be sure he was being honest with me. Well, I just got off the phone. I was just wondering if I could have been a little bit more honest to be sure he was being honest with me. Well, I just got off the phone, as I said, with a friend that's out there that's on Liberty, and he's like, call me. And his news was that he had just got off the phone with his coordinator and mentioned to call me and say that there's some property. And they would establish a little trailer on that property, and it's a little bit rural, so it's not right in the midst of the community, you know, which is a good thing for all parties concerned, I think. Did he hear new things like that? Mimyeom, Mr. Lem's clinician, which is a chief clinician or...? Ms. Primary Face Provider, yeah. So what is called? Are you familiar with the details of the offenses that he committed? Yes. For me here, I have to level up on one. For me here as a journalist, the one challenge that I'm presented with Mr. Lem is that because he seems so upset about what he's done, it makes it difficult for me to kind of pry into the details of what the crimes were have since that there's a little resistance to that. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, there's a great deal of shame and grief when I've made it real for me, but I'm not ashamed that as much to tell people what I did. It just doesn't seem to... I mean, I can't see what telling every small detail and every victim and what an awful things that were done to matter or can help any journalism or anybody other than a clinician. I mean, obviously I'm kind of a non-clinical perspective, and I think this viewers who would feel not that every detail needs to be gone into, but there's also a sense that because the crimes are so serious that people would feel they kind of need you to own up to what you did to some extent. Not to share how much more that I could actually own up to them going through 11 years of treatment. No, I don't mean years of prison, just to cover where I'm feeling about this. What would you as a representative of the community feel Mr. Lem would need to do to own up to use your words to own up to what he's done? I think it's by saying, you know, he's the transparency, and here is where I am now. If it's important to you to know the details of the crime, I'll be thrilled, truly, to tell you. But the important thing is that is my past. I want that absolutely understood. Most of the crimes were as a teenager. I have about 35 of them. Before I was 18, I was just running willingly in the neighborhood, trying to be friend younger boys, under 10 generally. If I could convince them to be rarely copulated, that was my fetish, if you will. The 15 that were as an adult, it was a lot of fondling and orcopulating if it could get to that point. That is just awful. It's awful to me now, but those are the things I did. The contact sitting among my lap playing computer games, trying to hug, it's just constant contact obsession. I sensed a certain amount of irritation from you. When we started talking about some of the crimes and I just wondered when he goes out into the community, he may face a large amount of publicity and journalists door stepping him, I think, would be a possibility. TV crews turning up on his doorstep, I think might be a possibility. If he finds that really annoying, that may be an issue for him. It's less annoying than it is hurtful. Perhaps the public would think, well, I need to be hurt over and over again. I can find ways to bring up stuff and make me feel bad about this all the time. There's my life, but I do need to get over it too. The treatment is, let me do that. In fact, the judge asked me when he ordered the release. He said, is this just a bunch of, what was it? The clinical buzzwords you're telling me? I said no, it's just a new way of life. My time at Coalingo was done. I left impressed by this sincerity of some of the individuals and their commitment to change. And baffled by the continuing self-delusion of others. There were one or two I'd come to believe were reformed men. But the awkward truth about Coalingo is that despite the best intentions of the psychologists and social workers, most of the people here, even those in treatment, will never get out. And so the main function of this hospital has become less about treating sex offenders than containing them. Here most of them will live in comfort and confinement until the end of their days. If you've been affected by the issues raised in this programme and would like sources of information and support, you can call the BBC Action Line in confidence on 08155-327. Calls are free from a landline though mobile operators will charge and lines are open 24 hours a day.