The Great Vitamin Fraud | This May Save Your Live

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The information presented in this program is not intended as legal, health, or nutritional advice. All topics are provided for informational purposes only and are not necessarily endorsed. Neither Light On nor its host accepts responsibility for any statements, views, or opinions presented in this episode. All rights reserved. Daniel Reuters with me today, back on the show. We've been sharing a lot of research and things over the last couple years and you're honestly one of my favorites, man. I love all the stuff that you put out there and you're really you're fascinating because you have a talent for finding these really antique studies, if you will. They're really cool old stuff. I'm really into that stuff. Recently, you've been putting out a lot of stuff about vitamins. I wanted to talk to you about that because my understanding of vitamins was like everybody else's. You would take these supplements when you're sick or just in general to stay healthy and I never thought twice about it. I wanted to hear your perspective on vitamins and what you've been finding through your research on them. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. This is coming from a close to 15 year qualified nutritionist. So I have a master's degree qualification in human nutrition. And I also lecture at a university as a senior lecturer in human nutrition. So I think I have some expertise in this matter for whatever that's worth and the more I learn about nutrition, I just realized that I know absolutely nothing. But yeah, I've been looking into the whole vitamins thing and what I've found is quite crazy. I'm not sure that vitamins exist in the way that we've been told that they exist. So where do I start with all this? This is probably a question because it's such a big topic. Have you ever heard of a thing called the food matrix? Oh, it sounds familiar. Yeah. So there's a thing called the food matrix and there's also a thing called food synergy. They're both the same thing essentially. And what that means is synergy essentially is that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. So if you had 10 individual little components and you added them all together individually, they wouldn't equate to the whole sum of those parts as a whole unit. So that's synergy. All these components somehow work together in a very complex mechanism or manner so that they have added effects that you don't get when each of those individual things are separated into their individual component. So food works this way and we don't really understand how or why. And when I was doing my post-graduate degree, the lecturers were talking about this food synergy and this food matrix that's so complicated we will never understand it. So from if we think about this like from a perspective of drugs, they make aspirin. They take the white willow bark from the willow tree and they extract one chemical from that which is acetyl cellosilic acid which is aspirin and they put it into a drug and they give it to you for pain relief. But when you take that isolated substance, there's effects that you get. There's lots of direct effects and side effects. But you don't get that effect when you have just the willow bark and we use that in herbal medicine, the willow bark. You don't get those side effects because there are other components in that bark that help with this, the metabolism, the absorption, the utilization of that chemical substance. Interesting. So that's sort of pharmaceutical medicine. They take one substance, extract it from the plant and they use it as a drug. From a nutritional medicine perspective, the food is the whole substance. But they've done a similar kind of thing where they've taken like an orange and they pull out just the vitamin C and they put it into a capsule and give it to people. They go, oh, this is just natural. This is fine. This is a vitamin. This is good for me. Yet if you did it with a herb, that'd actually be classified as a drug. And herbs and plants are the same thing, right? They're not any different to one another. So what we're actually getting here is a form of drug therapy under the guise of nutrition. Wow. The good guy. The nutrition only really comes from food. Does that make sense? It's a very complicated topic and I'm just trying to simplify it down as much as I can. Right. So by isolating these one things, of these one, like one ingredient out of something, they're getting a more, maybe a more, or at least a different effect than you would with the whole thing, with all the ingredients together, right? Yes. And maybe more potent. It may be, but it may be less potent. It may be less effective. It may have side effects. Maybe doing things in our body that if you took vitamin C by itself in a supplement, it works in the body completely differently than it does if you eat an orange. Now the really crazy thing that a lot of people don't get, maybe I'll ask you the question. Your bottle of say like vitamin C or B vitamins or something, maybe you're taking a multi-vitamin. Where do you think the vitamins come from? That's a good question. I mean, I never really thought about it. One thing that blew my mind is when I finally looked at the, I looked at vitamin D3 and I saw the main ingredient was cold calciferol. And then I, you know, if you web search cold calciferol rat poison, you'll find that it is the main ingredient they use to kill rats. So it was like, well, fuck, I'm not taking that anymore. Yeah. So that was mind blowing to me. And so I haven't really looked at anything else, but I, you know, I'm not taking any more supplements. Yeah, the whole vitamin D thing we can get into that because it's a good topic. So many people would be excused for thinking that my vitamin C tablet that I'm taking, they've got a whole bunch of oranges or a whole bunch of strawberries or a whole bunch of blueberries or whatever. And some really smart people in a lab somewhere have worked out a process where they can take the orange and just take out the vitamin C and they put it in a tablet and there it is. Yeah. So I mean, that's the, the would be my best guess without knowing, you know, the specifics on the procedure. Yeah. Vitamin, the vitamins in your supplements that you're taking, they've never seen a food before. They're synthetic. They're made in a lab. So the way in which like vitamin C, for example, they manufacture that from genetically modified dextrose taken from corn. So they take the dextrose out of corn and then they take it through about, I don't know, half a dozen to a dozen chemical processes where they're adding in heavy metals, all sorts of weird chemicals. Sometimes they use formaldehyde and tin and cold and all this really crazy stuff, adding in all these substances to the dextrose, adding in heat, precipitating it off, evaporating things off, creating these chemical reactions in a test tube to get a substance which they say is chemically identical to vitamin C. And then they put that into your pill or powder or capsule and you take that and we call it vitamin C. But the vitamin C that you get in a supplement is completely different to the vitamin C that you get in food and people aren't really aware of that. Yeah, that's, it's kind of terrifying, you know, yeah, I mean, I've just been telling people to try and get everything from food. That makes the most sense to me because I don't know what they're doing in labs. So when they're telling people, you know, that they see these benefits, you know, I mean, you hear it with like, oh, pregnancy a lot, right? Oh, if you take this multivitamin or whatever during your pregnancy, you can avoid getting, you know, these complications. I mean, what are these, are they really seeing benefits with any of these things? Or is it all just kind of skewed like, you know, like the stuff we see with vaccines and all the rest? I think these vitamins are working like drugs. So when you take a drug and you get an effect, it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean that it's curing the problem. And this is what we see. And certainly what I've seen in, you know, close to getting on close to 14 years of clinical practice now, we see people taking supplements, they feel better when they're taking it, but as soon as they stop, the problem comes back. So it's not addressing the underlying cause of the problem. It's actually just masking the symptoms. Now, when we look at things like vitamin C, for example, I've been looking really hard into this because I don't actually think vitamins exist in the way that we've been told that they exist. First viruses, now vitamins. Yeah. Get sick, get man. I know. And it's a bit of a head scratcher for me too. I don't really, I don't understand this yet. And I don't think anyone really does. Here's the issues that I have with the whole vitamin thing. We'll stay on the track of vitamin C, right? Because we're already talking about it. And most people know vitamin C. How did they ever discover that there was a substance called vitamin C? There were men on ships who fell ill with scurvy. And the doctors in the Navy were trying to work out what it was caused by. They thought it was a contagious virus. They thought it was a thing that could be passed between salitis, salar until they eventually worked out that it was a vitamin deficiency. A substance, something in limes or lemons that when the salar is eight, their symptoms disappeared quite quickly. So they started doing experiments where they were taking lemons and limes and trying to identify the thing in the lemon or the lime that cured scurvy. And what they did when you go back and look at the original papers of when they discovered vitamin C and how they first isolated it, it's kind of similar to what's been done in virology. They never had the thing in the first place to know what they were looking for. What they did was they took an orange or a lemon or a lime and they started tinkering with it. They started adding stuff in. They started adding in heavy metals and formaldehyde and all this crazy stuff, right? And they started doing like these crazy chemical reactions and each step along the way, they gave these substances to the salars after they'd added in like half a dozen different things to it and added some heat or whatever else and precipitated and created these reactions in this test tube. And then they gave the substance to the salar and they kept repeating this until they got a substance which took their scurvy away. And they said, ah, that must be the thing that's in the orange that also reverses this scurvy. But nowhere along the way did they ever control for those methods of adding things into the orange solution. They didn't control each step along the way to say, is this changing the end outcome? They never did that once. So they basically said, well, when we do step one through to 10 with an orange, we add in all this stuff and do these crazy reactions, we end up with an end product that reverses the symptoms of scurvy. Therefore, that's vitamin C. That's the thing that's in the orange. And we're going to start to now synthesize this chemical artificially, put it into tablets and people will take it and think it's the natural substance that they're getting from an orange. That's so bizarre. And some of that may be like from aldehyde and all of those additives. Yeah, man, they use some crazy stuff. And it's like, how do you know that the formaldehyde didn't affect your end product? How do you know that the end product that you've got that you say is vitamin C is the same thing as in the orange? You never controlled for those 10 steps. You never showed that each step along the way wasn't affecting the end product. And they say, well, we can do gas chromatography and we can see that the chemical structure of the substance that we have from our chemical addition experiments is the same chemical structure as what is found in the orange. So the issue that I have with that, sorry, am I, I hope I'm not losing you here. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, cool. It's really complicated and I'm trying my hardest to simplify it down. No, you're good. So the issue that I have with this is they say, well, they look chemically identical. We can do this gas chromatography and it sort of gives a chart, a graph, and it, in its spikes where you get a certain chemical when it goes along as another chemical and go and they say, well, this is how we work out the chemical structure of vitamin C. Our test tubes got this substance and oranges got this substance. They look the same on on this gas chromatography analysis. Therefore, they're the same thing. If I had two fridges, two pictures of fridges side by side and they looked identical or two cars side by side identical looking cars and I asked you from the pictures, tell me which car is diesel. Tell me which one is the six cylinder. Tell me the one that's got the turbo. Tell me the one that's got the additional airbags. Tell me the one that runs on a battery is a hybrid or an electric. You couldn't do it just by looking at the outside of the car. Or if I said what's inside the fridge? If you've got two identical pictures of the same fridge, you don't know what's in that fridge. You've got to open the door. Same thing with the car. You've got to look under the bonnet and see what because built out of right? Is it a six cylinder, is it a turbo, is it a four cylinder, whatever? Is it a manual, is it an automatic? When we start looking at vitamins and minerals and things with other analytical methods that aren't just this gas chromatography, we start to see massive differences in the qualities and the characteristics of these vitamins. You may have seen a post I did a while ago on Vitamin C and actually had synthetic vitamin C next to natural vitamins. I was just going to ask you about that. Yeah, that picture was kind of amazing because it looked completely different, right? Yeah, because the stuff that they make in a lab is not the same as what you get in a vitamin. And here's the really crazy thing. Back when they were looking into what the substance was in food that cured scurvy, when they gave lemons or limes or oranges or whatever, two people with scurvy in 100% of cases the scurvy went away. But when they did the experiments with the ascorbic acid, which is the thing that they're isolating in these crazy laboratory experiments, from what I can tell, the scurvy only went away in 60 to 70% of the cases. It didn't cure it in 100% of the cases. So that already tells me that there's something completely different to what they're claiming is vitamin C in a synthetic form and what's in food. It's completely different. There was something else I was going to say there. Sorry, I lost my trying to throw it. No worries. Yeah. I lost my training. I was just trying to process this. So yeah, so definitely there was a diminished effect. It was not as great an effect when they used their lab creation rather than than the real thing. Here's the sorry, I do remember what I was going to say, Patrick. Here's the other really interesting thing is that they tell us that scurvy is caused by a deficiency of vitamin C and that the only way to cure it is by ingesting vitamin C. But I've actually found papers from the late 1800s and early 1900s where they were curing scurvy with non-vitaminsy substances. So one example of that is that we're using pot ash which is essentially like a potassium salt and they were giving it to people with scurvy and their scurvy was going away. So that flies in the face completely of what they say is the cure for scurvy. I mean potassium and vitamin C is supposedly completely different substances. So how does that actually work? It makes no sense. And there were multiple other substances that are able to cure scurvy with. Yeah, there's so many inconsistencies here with what we're being told in relation to vitamin. And it definitely makes me scratch my head. But that could also be just there are two things that cure this one thing, right? I mean, yeah, scurvy may not be scurvy may not be just a vitamin C deficiency. Oh right. So they're cleaning it's just a vitamin C deficiency. Nothing else can cause it. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, that is strange. And that's very strange. Yeah. So there's so much more going on here than meets the eye. And it's very hard to find the answer because I don't think anyone really knows. If we did understand this, you know, we'd understand the food matrix. So a scurvy acid is just one part of vitamin C. So vitamin C is actually a complex. It's got all these other things in it that help it to be absorbed, assimilated, metabolized, utilized by the body and excreted. A scurvy acid is like the shell, the outer shell. And then when you look at vitamin C, there's all these other components that are inside that outer shell. And they are things like PK and J factors, which are like things like hisspirited, for example, which is like a flavonoid, which is found in food. So we know that these things are actually a part of vitamin C as a whole, but you don't get those things when you take just the ascorbic acid in your supplement. So you're actually, you're under the impression you're getting vitamin C, but you're really not. You're getting the outer shell. It's like me buying a souped up Mustang or something. And they're saying, oh, this is the V8 version. And actually, I'm getting the four cylinder version. But I didn't know that because I never looked under the food. Right. Well, can you tell me anything more specific about the vitamin D3 thing? What is it about vitamin D3 that is that the same sort of thing? Like, you know, because it's killing rats in one in one product and supposedly helping us in another. Yeah, man. The whole vitamin D thing from my perspective is an absolute sham. Um, so maybe we'll start like kind of how we did with vitamin C. How did we ever discover that there was a thing called vitamin D? And you'll just be blown away by how they deduced that there was this thing called vitamin D. What they did back in say the early, oh, sorry, late 1800s, early 1900s is there were people suffering with, um, blindness and a condition called rickets and rickets is essentially like a softening of the bones where you are insufficient in a certain vitamin, right? And your bones become soft and they start to bow. And you kind of look like you're walking around like one of those Western cowboys, right? With those sort of knock need, right? So you get this condition called rickets. What doctors noticed was when they gave like, uh, cod liver oil to these people who had blindness and rickets, their blindness and rickets went away. So they said, oh, there's something in here that's curing the blindness and there's also another individual constituent, which is curing the rickets. So they, um, put, they exposed the cod liver oil to heat and they then gave it again to blind people and people with rickets. But after they'd exposed the cod liver to heat, I always get confused. It only, I'm reversed one of those conditions. So it either reversed blindness or it reversed rickets, but not the other one. Okay. So they said, when we expose it to heat, the cod liver oil to heat, it destroys a vitamin in the cod liver oil and now it doesn't cure rickets anymore. So we're going to call that substance that got destroyed by a heat vitamin D. And the substance that didn't get destroyed by heat, we're going to call that vitamin A. That's how they came up with it, right? It's just kind of crazy. Wow. And it might be the other way around. It might have been that vitamin A got destroyed by heat. I can't remember it's been a while since I've looked at the papers. So they pre-supposed that there was this substance in there that cured binders or cured rickets. Do that a lot, those guys. Yeah, right. They do. And fast forward to say, bonded vitamin D starts becoming popular early 2000s. We started seeing these epidemiological observation studies where scientists and doctors were looking at large groups of people and they were testing their blood. And they found that the people who had the lowest levels of disease had the highest levels of vitamin D in their blood. They found the people who had the highest levels of disease had the lowest levels of vitamin D. So they made this assumption that, oh, it must be the vitamin D. That's the reason why the people with the higher vitamin D levels had the lowest levels of disease. So therefore, we got to start supplementing people with vitamin D so they get this beneficial effect. How would how do they even test for vitamin D? Say, yeah, they do a blood test and search for the chemical. The one chemical and they would have done the same sort of thing like they did with vitamin C. It was like, do all these crazy experiments to isolate just the vitamin D substance. Okay. And then they look for that substance in your blood and they say, well, they're the same things. So we have these observational epidemiological studies basically saying, well, yeah, people with higher vitamin D levels are healthier. So therefore, let's supplement with it. But then when they've gone and done the actual experiments where they've supplemented people with vitamin D, no one got better. No one's risk of cancer went down. People's rates of depression didn't go down. People's cardiovascular risk markers weren't affected. There is no beneficial effect associated with taking a vitamin D supplement. So what do you think that possibly means if we're seeing people with a higher vitamin D level have a lower rate of disease, but when they're giving the vitamin D, they're not getting the effect. Like, what would that mean to you? Sounds like vitamins or BS as far as the supplements at least. Well, yes, I think there's probably a lot of truth to that. But there's more to this story. And that is the sun exposure that people were getting with was having the beneficial effect on the people. So they had lower rates of disease. But when you get exposed to sun, this marker in your blood called vitamin D goes up. So it was never the vitamin D in the first place that had the effect. It was the sun exposure. So we've confused vitamin D for the beneficial effect of the sun. So let me give you an analogy here. Have you ever been camping? Yes. And did you ever have a fire when you went camping? Yeah, of course. Yeah, it's kind of like the thing you want to do when you go camping. It's a special fun part of camping, right? So it gets cold one night and you start a fire and you huddle around that fire and it keeps you warm. Let's draw an analogy between fire and the sun. So the fire is the sun. But let's pretend for a moment. When you wake up the next morning, there's ash on the ground, right? The ash is the leftover bits from the fire. It's the evidence that the fire was there. Correct. Now would you agree that the ash on the ground is the evidence that the sun, sorry, that the fire was there? Yeah, sure. Yeah. So you can't walk up to that pile of ash on the ground and get a little jar, glass jar, and go and take the ash from the ground and put it in that jar. And then later that night, it starts to get cold again. You're like, all right, better start that fire and you sprinkle ash around the ground and then you huddle around the pile of ash and you try and stay warm. It doesn't work, right? Right. So the ash is the vitamin D. The ash is the evidence that the fire was there. The vitamin D is the evidence that you've had exposure to the sun. Nothing more than that. And there are dozens upon dozens of papers published in the scientific literature, which state this. And they state something along the lines of vitamin D is nothing more than a proxy marker for sun exposure. So people are here spending in Australia more than $100 million a year Australians are spending on vitamin D supplements. Yet we live on the sunniest continent on the face of the planet or the plane, right? And all you have to do is walk outside and get exposure to the sun. You're getting the actual thing that your body needs because where light beings, yet people have been conned into being scared of the sun. And now they go, well, because I don't want to get skin cancer, I don't want to get burnt, I'll just take the vitamin D instead. And they're under this illusion that the vitamin D is having the same effect when it is nothing of the sort. So, you know, can you just imagine you've got all these people just huddling around piles of ash and like, oh, so much better and so much warmer now. It's just nonsense. And people fall for this stuff. It sounds like, yeah, they're just selling a lot of snake oil basically and pawning it off as like, you know, what nature can do for us. And it's funny because during, I mean, yeah, the sun has always been healing during the Spanish flu. They had sunshine therapy, right? They would put all the sick people out in the sunshine and they would get, they would get a lot better. So they knew we've always known that the sun was here. I mean, people worship the sun, you know, ancient cultures. And so I don't think you can bottle what the sun gives you. That's for sure. And the way that they make this vitamin D is they take, they shear sheep, they take the wool from the sheep. And then they add in a whole bunch of toxic chemicals, which extracts the lannolin from the sheep's wool. And then they take the lannolin and add in a whole bunch more chemicals and do all this crazy stuff to it to get just the vitamin D. And then they put that vitamin D into a genetically modified soybean carrier oil. They put it into a poor scene soft gel capsule and put it into a bottle. And then tell you that the sun's going to kill you and that you'd better buy the vitamin D to make sure you're getting the thing that you're lacking from getting sun exposure. But here's the really crazy thing. There from what I've been able to research is that there are about three dozen, and I'm sure there's more, but there's about three dozen documented beneficial effects of sun exposure. So even if vitamin, we're talking above and beyond vitamin D here, three dozen effects. So even if vitamin D did have the beneficial effect, which it doesn't, it's the sun. Even if it was helping, you're missing out on 35 other beneficial effects from the sun. You're not getting those effects. It's absolute nonsense that people want to take this stuff. And you mentioned before about vitamin D being a rat poison. Well, it is. It's the active ingredient in rat poison. And here we are taking it hand over fist. And in I think 20, I'm not completely sure. It may have been 2019 or it may have been late last year, one of the two. But they classified vitamin D in Europe. I think it was Epa EWPA. I'm not sure exactly what that stands for. It's an agency over in Europe. Which classified vitamin D as an endocrine disrupting substance. So it actually messes up your endocrine system. Jesus. And yeah, we give it to rats and it kills rats. But then we go, well, that's, you know, it's a very large amount of vitamin D comparatively. So when we take it as a human, it's just a small bit. You know, a small bit of poison is good for you. Yeah, they love to say, oh, it's in such a small quantity that it can't hurt you. But if you're taking that small quantity every day for years, yeah, it's good to do some damage. Whilst being deficient of the sun and having this unhealthy fear of killing you and causing cancer, living in fear of the very thing that gives life to every single living thing on this planet. And slapping yourself in sunscreen. That's good for you, but not the sun. Everything really is inverted. It really is. If you do the opposite of what they tell you, I think you'd probably fare pretty well, honestly. And it's amazing, like looking into this stuff, man, it's like you realize just how they're insidiously trying to kill and sicken people from every angle. I mean, it's not a conspiracy theory. Today I read about tampons, women's tampons containing titanium dioxide, is it? Same thing that was in skittles, I believe. So I'm thinking that's in sunscreen. By the way, Patrick. Yeah, benzene and titanium oxalant, I'm sure. Jesus, wow, yeah, what a combo. I mean, how are we expected to not get sick with all of these things in every point? That's just a couple different products. I mean, people don't think about their shampoos, their dish soap, their, I mean, the cleaners they're using around their house, the makeup that they're slathering on their face. And we wonder why people get sick. It's crazy. It's really crazy. You know, the other thing, just to sort of maybe add to the discussion on vitamins, is that people are under this impression that vitamins are manufactured by a vitamin company. And the vitamin company really cares about you, and they really care about your health. Actually, that's not true. Vitamins are made by up to about half a dozen pharmaceutical companies around the world. So there's about six companies that make this stuff in a lab synethetically. And then they have like these big 44 gallon drums of vitamin C or vitamin D. And then a vitamin company goes to them and says, hey, can we buy some vitamin C from you? Like sure, how many 44 gallon drums do you want? Like, I will take six. So they send out 644 gallon drums to the vitamin company. And then the vitamin company puts their label on the outside of the bottle, right, and sells it as a natural supplement. Yet these things are all being made by pharmaceutical companies. So they're on one hand, like making the drugs, which are, you know, one aspect of medicine. And yet on the other hand, they're also making the vitamin, but people are under this assumption that all the vitamins are good for me. I better stay away from those sucky pharmaceutical drugs. It's coming from the same, the same people giving you both of the things. I call it big pharma light, really, the supplement industry. It really is big pharma light. And they took me a long time to realize that too. Because I mean, we were so ingrained with this, this information, you know, they programmed us. Yeah, man. And you know, it goes so much deeper than this. I don't know how deep you want to go into it. The deepest. Well, on the way, there's a thing called fetal programming. I'm not sure if you've heard about this concept before. That's true. So fetal programming is basically the study of what happens to an unborn fetus when it's in the placenta, when it's growing, and how all of the things that the mother is exposed to in its external environment impact the growth of the fetus. So there's an example that I can use when a mother is pregnant. Let's say she's taking an antidepressant. And we know that antidepressants are bogus now. There's pretty good evidence to show that. But when you're taking this, this artificial drug, the trial, the unborn child is getting this chemical coming in. They're being exposed to it. And their nervous system and their brain is developing under the assumption that when it's brought into the world, it's going to be getting exposure to this antidepressant every single day. Maybe it's in the food, like the antidepressant chemical is a natural thing in food. So my body is going to develop in such a way that the nervous system now functions optimally when it's being exposed to antidepressant chemicals. It's like a dependency. Yeah, right. It's kind of like if your mother was taking heroin while you were pregnant, and the baby comes out addicted to heroin. Right. Except it's a step further than that, I think. And if you look at the fetal programming papers, they do sort of tend towards agreeing with this perspective is that the neurochemistry of the body now becomes almost dependent on being exposed to that chemical. If you take it away, the brain doesn't work as properly anymore. And you have a much higher risk of neurocognitive disease. So when you're born, you're not getting the antidepressant. So as you age, your risk of all these neurocognitive diseases goes up because the brain's almost kind of like starving in a way, because it was developed, it developed around that need. So it's not getting the thing. I think there's a similar thing potentially happening with synthetic vitamins. So every woman who's pregnant, they're like, oh, do you better take your vitamins every day? Otherwise, you're going to be deficient. So women are popping hand over fist these synthetic vitamins, which are found nowhere in nature. And is it possible that the little baby is developing all of its biochemical pathways based on the fact that it's going to be getting exposed to these synthetic forms of vitamins? When it's born, they eat the food, but they still end up with disease and deficiency type syndromes. And we say, oh, that's because the food's deficient. You better supplement. So they take the supplement and they get better, but it's because the baby's chemistry was developed based on getting the synthetic vitamins. Can you see where I'm going with that? Yeah, that's what that's wild, man. Yeah, it is wild. It is wild. And I'm not saying that this is proven 100% fact beyond any doubt. But this is my current train of thought. And I may be wrong. And I'm happy to be recanted. I'm happy to recant that if someone can prove me wrong, but it kind of makes sense when you look at it from that fetal programming perspective. And then there's also all sorts of other crazy stuff where like folic acid, for example, you know how they say, oh, women better take folic acid to stop abnormal growth of the fetus. Yeah, the stop neural tube defects. You better get your folic acid. So folic acid is a synthetic form of folate. Volic acid is found nowhere in nature. It does not exist. The only place it exists is in a baritory at a pharmaceutical company somewhere. And when I was going through my degrees in nutrition, I was always told that folate, which comes from food, which is the natural form, it's vitamin B9, it's found in like grains and nuts and seeds and leafy drain vegetables and fruits and all these kinds of things. Folate and folic acid, I was taught are exactly the same thing. They're chemically identical. They behave in the body the exact same way. There is no difference. So it doesn't matter if you don't get enough in your diet, just take your pregnancy multi, you'll get enough folic acid and you're all good. I've found some studies where they've shown that if you have a high level of folic acid in your blood when you're pregnant, the risk of giving birth to an autistic child doubles. What I also found is that if you have a high level of synthetic vitamin B12 in your blood as a pregnant woman, your risk of giving birth to an autistic child triples. Remember how I was talking a little bit about that synergy thing before? How the whole is greater than the sum of the parts? If a pregnant woman has high levels of folic acid and B12 in their blood whilst they're pregnant, the risk of giving birth to an autistic child increases by 17.6 times. It's insane and no one knows about this. No one's talking about it and women are just popping tablets hand over fist because they're scared that they won't be getting enough vitamins from their diet. I've been talking for a while here, but I'll just finish one last point. What happens with our food supply is they process the heck out of a lot of foods that we eat. And when you process food, the vitamins basically get stripped out and destroyed. So they re-add them back in. They say it's food fortification. So they fortify our food with folic acid. One bowl of cereal contains about 400 micrograms of folic acid, which is about three quarters of your daily requirement of folate. So what happens if a pregnant woman has two bowls of cereal? Now she's getting more than she needs every day. And then what happens if she goes and has some bread and some pasta. And like she uses corn flour to do some cooking that night. That's all fortified with folic acid as well. So now she's getting two, three, four hundred percent more than she needs. And then on top of that, her doctors probably said, hey, you should probably take a pregnancy multi just to make sure you're not getting deficient vitamin deficiencies. So you're also getting an additional up to a 1,000 micrograms of folic acid. And what they've shown is that in 1988, sorry, 1988, the amount of folic acid in people's blood was about 12 nanomoles per liter. Six years later, in 1994, people had three times that amount of folic acid in their blood, close to about 36 nanomoles per liter. And what they found was in 1988, about 7% of the population had what they would classify as high levels of folic acid in their blood. By 1994 or so, just six years later, nearly 50% of the population had high levels of folic acid in their blood. So we're all, or not all of this, but a lot of us are walking around with potentially abnormally high levels of this synthetic vitamin coursing through our veins. It's really quite concerning when you think about it. I used to eat a shit ton of cereal man, like when I was a kid up until, I mean, well into adulthood, I mean, it's a wonder I'm not artistic. I think maybe I am. I don't know. But look, I'm not saying that folic acid causes it. I'm saying that there's an association there. And there may indeed be other contributing factors to this. And there are many things that I can think of that probably also contribute to autism. Of course. But it is very interesting. And there are animal experiments where they've given them high doses of folic acid. And it's caused autistic-like symptoms in animals and neurocognitive impairment. And it messes up with their genetic profile and all this sort of crazy stuff. So because folate is involved in DNA methylation, it basically helps to create our genetic material. So it's really damn important. And we're getting this synthetic form. And folic acid is just one form. Right? If you eat a green bean, there's actually four different forms of folate in that green bean. And they're all natural. And your body needs all four of those forms to create your DNA and maintain your DNA properly. So if you're just getting folic acid, that ain't cut in the mustard as far as I'm concerned. So people really need to re-evaluate whether or not taking these synthetic vitamins in high doses, in isolation is really actually beneficial for their health or potentially detrimental to their health. And that's not a decision that I can make for them. They have to go and do their own research. But I do find a lot of this stuff very peculiar. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can tell you that I don't trust anything coming out of that industry at this point in my life. And so I've, you know, thrown out all my supplements. Not that I was a big supplement person to begin with, but when I was sick, you know, I would take vitamin C, vitamin D, all that stuff, thinking it would help. But it just, you know, I think the point here is that, you know, we're not really eating the way that we're intended to eat. And we've given away our responsibility to all these corporate interests who tell us that they're keeping us healthy in the same way that nature would, but they have no intention or maybe not even the ability. So that's, I mean, that's one of my big realizations in all of this. Yeah, Mother Nature's got it right. And, you know, maybe there's a creator, maybe there's not, but let's assume there is a creator for a moment. That creator was like, well, I've got a human being here, and I need to fuel it somehow. I need to fuel the human body. So, let's just assume that there are these things called vitamins. They're like, all right, what if we just give the vitamins like this? We just give it a isolation and we just leave little vitamin trees around. One tree's got like just the vitamin C capsule. One tree's got just the vitamin B. And they eat it. And I do the, the creator did the experiment. It's like, oh, that didn't work. Back to the drawing board. Tries the next thing didn't work. Tries the next thing didn't work. And through this process of creating this reality, the way that we, that the creator worked out that we had to get the nutrition that we need is by eating an orange or by eating a strawberry or by eating a green bean or by eating a, yeah, wheat grain, right? That is the way that you get your nutrition. You can't get a sense. Right. Yeah. Everything is, I mean, you don't have to, I don't think you have to believe in, you know, God or whatever to know that there's an intelligent design to everything. I mean, I personally believe that there's a, there was a creator because, because everything is so intelligently designed. But yeah, it all functions on a, on a system. Everything has a working part to it. It all fits together perfectly. Yeah. The vitamin industry thinks they know better than nature. And they don't. They, they do not know better than nature. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't instances where someone might benefit from a vitamin. Like, let's say someone is really, really sick with scurvy and they physically can't eat a strawberry. Well, to save their life, maybe we give them some intravenous vitamin C. And it just builds them up just enough to get them back on the straight and narrow so that they can start eating a better diet. Yeah. You know, that might be a great instance of, of using that type of nutritional therapy. But, but, you know, even that word nutritional therapy, these, this whole field of vitamins is not nutrition. Nutrition is food when you start using vitamins. This is called ortho molecular medicine. This is akin to drug therapy. So we have to make that distinction. People are confused. They think that this vitamin, these vitamins are a part of nutrition when they're not. There are completely separate fields. And it basically is a form of drug therapy. And, and we can use these substances for, um, certainly instances where people get really sick and they might need to be boosted up in a certain level or a certain area of their deficient diet. But isn't it a shame that we have that people have to get there in the first place? Yeah. Yeah. They get so sick. And like you said, that, sorry, that could just be masking their symptoms, though, right? Like you said. And I think that's probably what's going on. A lot of the time because I've found that, uh, in clinical practice, once people stop taking their supplements, their condition comes back very quickly. Um, you know, people say, oh, I swear by vitamin D because when I take it, my arthritis gets better. Well, when you actually look at what vitamin D is, it's a steroid hormone. It's a seco steroid. I think the way that it's actually working is like a quarter zone injection, except you're taking it as a pill. So it's working as a hormonal anti-inflammatory like a drug, which essentially it is. And it stops because the inflammation is the healing process. So it basically stops the healing process and the inflammation goes away. The damage is still there in, in my hand, I've still got the arthritis. But when I was taking my anti-inflammatory drug, which we call vitamin D, I think, oh, well, the vitamin D is making me better. When in fact, it was just masking the symptoms to begin with. Incredible. Yeah, man. It is. People don't realize this stuff. And as far as I'm concerned, food is the only way that you can get your nutrition. It really is. I think that makes more sense. But yeah, you know, again, it's like that quick fix, take a magic pill type of mentality that we've been ingrained with. So I think that makes it appealing to people. And there's also, there's been a big push with this too, sorry, to interrupt your battery. There's been a big push with this whole vitamin thing. Now, I used to work for a farm. I used to work for the largest pharmaceutical company in the Southern Hemisphere. When I soon after I graduated, they had a pharmaceutical division and they had a vitamin division. And I worked in the vitamin division. And I remember attending one of their meetings. This is back in like 2011 or 12 or something. And in one of their big meetings, they were saying, by 2020, the money that we make from vitamin sales is going to far exceed the money that we make from drug sales. So there's huge amounts of money in this. And you know, that's a classic example of like a massive pharmaceutical company making these vitamins, which they're in every single pharmacy and like grocery store here in Australia. Like if I said the name of what that product was, people would know it. But they're making more money from the vitamins and from the drugs. So there's definitely a desire to want to make people take these things. And I think a lot of what we're seeing is very clever marketing campaigns pushed upon the unsuspecting general public where they're under the illusion that these things are actually good for them. But in reality, it may be very detrimental to your health. And an example of that is what you would like me to give an example of how these things can be detrimental. Sure. So a lot of women have iron deficiency anemia because they have heavy menstrual bleeding and they lose blood and they become iron division. So they think that the way to address that iron deficiency is by taking a supplement. Now what I've found is that when you take an iron supplement, it causes oxidative stress and damage to your body. And when it's combined with another vitamin, vitamin C, if you take both of those things together, there's a reaction that happens in your gut that causes damage to the lining of your gut. It causes inflammation. It can cause ulceration. And it can even lead potentially to cancer of the gastrointestinal tract. When you take iron and vitamin C together in a supplement. And what's crazy is they say vitamin C helps iron absorption. So you want to take them together. So in every single vitamin supplement, in every single iron supplement, I should say, they always put vitamin C together with it. However, yeah, man, it's really wild. And people say, oh, well, then I shouldn't eat an orange with some meat because I'm going to get iron and vitamin C together and it's going to cause issues. Well, mother nature's worked this out for us. There are chemicals in the meat and there's chemicals in the orange that stop those negative processes from happening. It doesn't occur from food. Only occurs when you take these supplements. Pretty wild stuff. Okay, so moving on from vitamins, I definitely wanted to get to the meat versus vegan diet debate is pretty huge. It gets very contentious, gets very heated. I get a lot of blowback from the vegans. They're, yeah, they're quite vicious. So you being a nutritionist, I thought maybe you could impart some wisdom on this. What's your opinion on that? I've always eaten a lot of meat. I do eat vegetables as well. I love them both. I've never had a problem, with the amount of meat that I eat. What is the science? Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer. And I don't really know based on what the science says because there's science that you could use to suggest one thing or the other. The way that I answered this question is I look at what humanity's done for the last 500,000 years or however long you think we've been on this plane for. What have we traditionally done as people living in a natural environment? What did we eat? How did we survive? Were there any examples of tribes, native tribes around the world surviving purely off a plant-based diet? And the answer that I would give is none. There might be like an obscure tribe somewhere that did it. But the overwhelming majority, and I would say that all native tribes since the dawn of time have consumed plants and animals as a part of their diet. So that's how I kind of answered that question. And I think what were humans meant to eat? Well, if you went and found a guy, a native tribesperson walking through Papua New Guinea or Amazon or wherever, and he said, hey, what's good to eat? He's going to go, you see that berry there? You can eat that one. See that caterpillar there? That's good. See that beetle? That's all right. That trio over there, you stay away from that one. They knew what you could eat. They knew what didn't kill you. And that was essentially how they worked out what their diet was going to be. If it tasted the right, and it gave you some sustenance and it didn't kill you, then they'd eat it. And that's why they ate all these crazy, wacky things, right? Like spiders and whatever else. So yeah, that's how I sort of come to the conclusion as to what is it that we should be eating. And people also say, well, precisely what should we eat? Like, is there an ideal or optimal diet? And I think the answer is no. There isn't an ideal diet. The way... Let me give you an example here. So fine example, sometimes work better to explain complicated points. I'm a lecturer at a university and one of my students once came up to me and said, oh, Dan, I'm so sick and I don't know what to do. And it's been a few years now where I've got these really crazy gut problems and my body is just falling apart. And I have no energy and it's hard to concentrate blah, blah, blah. And she'd move from Thailand a few years before. Maybe five years before. Prior, I should say. And I said to her, well, when you moved from Thailand to Australia, what did you eat? Did you change your diet? Did you continue to eat a traditional type diet? She goes, no, no, no, no, I eat Australian food now. And I said, well, when did you start getting sick? Oh, pretty soon after I moved to Australia. And she wasn't eating a bad diet. Like, if you looked at ego, actually, this is pretty good. But it wasn't a traditional Thai diet. Her body, her... What she is made of, the essence of thousands of years of Thai people, her lineage is optimized, her biochemistry, the way that her body works is optimized to survive off Thai cooking and Thai food and those foods native to her country. Yeah, she's not getting that anymore. Even though she's eating what we would consider a healthy diet, she gets sick. So the answer to the question is, eat the way your ancestors ate, work out where in the world you came from, look at what they eat or what they ate, how they ate, how they grew their food, how they prepared it, how did they eat it? Did they eat it alone in their bedroom in front of the computer? Or did they eat it with their friends and family and they were happy and they're cooking was an event? Like, look at all of that traditional stuff and that's how you come to the conclusion as to what your diet should be. Now there is no vegan who can do that. No vegan can go, yeah, my ancestors for the last 10,000 years, just ate beans and spinach. Like, it doesn't, it never happened, it never existed. This vegan thing has only really come to fruition in what the last few decades. I mean, there wasn't meant, I don't know if there would be many vegans back in like 1920. Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it. So I don't know, I hope that answers your question. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. You know, I've always thought that it was, it's different for different people. And you know, I grew up in a European household. My family's from Romania. You know, eat a lot of meat, potatoes, type of stuff, a lot of Italian type of stuff. And I mean, if I eat a salad, man, I'm hungry like 10 minutes later. I mean, I can't, I cannot sustain myself on that type of diet. It just does not work for me. And I've tried, you know, like I've been on Bouts or like when I believed in that, I would be like, okay, how many more salads or what have you? And it just, no, I can't do it. My body craves meat. It craves that type of food. And I think, I think if people kind of paid attention and listened to their their own bodies, they would kind of figure it out. You know, but what I see with the vegan thing in general is a lot of people really wasting away on that diet. I don't think, I don't think people in general can really sustain themselves on only, you know, fruits and vegetables. I mean, and I can pick them out of a crowd now like, I'll meet somebody a few weeks ago and they're just very thin, like very gaunt and I'm like, you vegan? And they're like, yeah, how'd you know? I go, just wild gas. Like they're all really like amaciated. I mean, of course, like there's, you know, there's that one bodybuilder or something like who tries extra hard. But for the most part, I mean, they're very, they're not looking great. I mean, and I'm not saying that to insult anybody. But it just doesn't seem sustainable. You know, I love animals too, but I not enough to starve to death. Well, yeah, I mean, there's so many points there, Patrick, that you brought up. I mean, my sister was a vegan for many years and she did it for ethical reasons. And I have some seriously fundamental issues with how we are rearing animals for the consumption of food. I think there's some really unethical bullshit going on that needs to change. But that doesn't mean that we can't grow and rear animals sustainably and ethically. So my sister did that for many years, uh, was a vegan and became unwell. And we had discussions about, you know, what can we do to make sure that her diet is optimized? And she ate very well. She wasn't, um, like I went shopping with her once with some of her friends. And they're all vegan. Um, and when they went to the shop, they weren't buying whole foods and preparing meals themselves, they were buying packet foods. But, um, my sister would buy whole foods and make stuff herself because we grew up in a family where food was very important. And we all learned how to cook and prepare meals. And we'd put a lot of emphasis and appreciation onto that. But yeah, all of her friends all ate the rubbish and she cooked all the whole foods and whatever. Um, but still became unwell. And at a point maybe five, six years into it had to go back to eating animal products because she was becoming sick. And once she started reintroducing those animal products back into her diet, her health started to improve. Yeah. Um, the other thing about the whole, like ethical side of vegan, like being of vegans, more ethical because I'm not hurting animals. We just had that discussion around like, or what is it that we should eat? We look at what our ancestors did. Um, a, a weaselike would of vegans say that an Eskimo was a horrible unethical human being, or that a native indigenous person to Australia was an unethical, um, horrible human who was, um, treating animals terribly and killing animals unnecessarily. You probably, probably. Yeah. Right. Um, all the people in Papua New Guinea or Somalore or any of these places, I mean, they all hunted and gathered all of them. And all of those people, all of those tribes were far more inextricably linked and immersed with and had this connection and appreciation and understanding with nature far more than any of us today could have, far more than any of us could have today. Yet they still hunted animals. Yeah. Far more connected to nature, far deeper understanding about mother earth and how it works. Um, yet they still hunted animals. So for me, that whole ethical thing, um, isn't really, it's, it's a non-issue because I just look at what humanity has always done. It was never an issue before, so why is it a problem now? We can do this ethically. There are ethical ways where we can give animals a wonderful life. And, um, then it's, it, people think we use animals, right? And I think in those big factory farms, yes, we do. Yeah. But if we have like a sustainable regenerative agricultural practice or farm, um, it's not one or the other. It's not like, oh, I just grow the plants and the plants can survive just by themselves on their own. They consume less water, like all this sort of stuff, right? Um, it's a cycle. It, this is the circle of life. So the farmer, um, has a cow and the cow produces milk for his family. And he might milk a few liters out of the cow every day. Takes a few, you know, two liters for his family. Plenty left over for the little baby calf. The cow mose is lawn. The cow fertilizes the soil, puts the nutrients in there, which the plants require to be healthy for the plants to protect themselves because without that manure, they're going to be unhealthy and they're going to get eaten and destroyed by insects. Um, and return to the soil. The farmer protects the cow. It gives it a safe haven. It protects it from the wolves, right? Um, and they say, oh, but the cows have a higher water consumption and all this sort of stuff and they emit more greenhouse gas and all this nonsense. Um, the water that the plant needs and the water that the cow needs are not separate. They are the same. They are one another because the water that the cow gets, the cow produces the things that the plant needs to survive. And then the water that the plant uses is also by very virtue, the water that the cow needs because the cow eats the plant for nutrition. So it's a whole thing. It's not separate. I don't know if I've explained that very well. Yeah, absolutely. And just to get this. Yeah, it goes back to exactly what we're saying. Everything is, you know, everything works together. But just to piggyback on what you said before too, like, you know, there's this assumption that we uh, that we are for big factory farms just because we eat meat. No, we're not. Those are completely unethical. I don't think anybody likes the way animals are treated, um, in the, you know, the sort of main parts of the industry. Um, so that issue is a separate thing to be rectified, right? We're on board with that. Um, but there are ethical farms, um, where animals are treated, you know, they're treated amazingly well. And in these animals, like, if they were out in the wild, would be torn apart by other animals. I mean, if you've ever seen animals being hunted by other animals, it's not pretty. It's not, you know, or would vegans call that unethical? You know, it's not. That's just the way that life works. There's always beings that hunt the lower beings and, you know, to survive. That's the circle of life, as you said. Um, so that, that part of the, the argument needs to go away that that we're somehow, you know, responsible for these big, or horrible, uh, industries, because I don't think anybody likes those. But, yeah, on the ethical side, um, these animals get a far better life than they would out, you know, out in the wild, I think. Yeah, 100%. And also, Patrick, if we didn't live the way that we do, if we didn't live in these, like, I live in a concrete jungle, um, this is not where I live, by the way, I just put that there. I live in the concrete jungle. Do you live in the concrete jungle? You know, you know, if we didn't live in a meter, yeah. And, uh, there's a whole conversation around how toxic it is living in a concrete jungle. But, yeah, if we didn't live in a concrete jungle, and we were living in nature, those animals would be hunting us for food. So, I mean, is that unethical? How dare they? Right? They're just trying to survive. Yeah. Mother, I mean, living in nature is brick and tough, man. You've got to do everything you can to survive. It is survival of the fittest. And if you don't cut it, you're gone. Yeah. So, and people say, well, that's, you know, that's, that's, um, looking at things from like this, uh, good and bad, you know, right and wrong. They are just human constructs. They are things that we have invented. Uh, they good and bad does not exist. Right? There is no such thing as right and wrong. There are obviously morals and ethics and things. morals aren't here, and I believe. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know that it's just a thing inside you that when something, you do something wrong, you feel it if you've got conscience. Yeah. Right? It's just a feeling. So, you go, oh, I probably shouldn't do that next time because it really sucked and it made me feel bad. Yeah. But we hold on to those emotions and we like repeat, we repeatedly go over those experiences in our head and we go, oh my god, it was such a terrible thing. Uh, like if my dog acted that way, if he was holding on to like, oh, last week, I sniffed the dog's butt and the dog growled at me and now I'm depressed for ever more because I felt really bad when the dog growled at me. My dog would be a freaking nutcase, man. Yeah. But the dog lives in the moment. He goes, oh, I got to grow that. I'm going to just go and do something else now and just forgets about it and moves on with his life. He doesn't see good and bad. He just lives. He just lives life and experiences things in the moment. But we don't do that as humans and we, we sort of catastrophize things and create these scenarios and situations in our head which don't really happen in nature. Like, does the bird think it's wrong to go and pluck a ladybug off the tree after it's just given birth to its young? Like, it just does it, man. It's just the way it's the circle of life. Yeah. And you know, it's fine. People will have different opinions on that. But, you know, and I'll be the first to admit, man, like, I don't want to be the one to like have to kill the cow or whatever. I wouldn't want to be the guy killing the animal. I would do it if I was starving. I absolutely would. But I don't like, you know, I don't necessarily see it as like a pleasurable thing. It's just a necessity. And I've always like, I've respected vegans and vegetarians because they're willing to sacrifice, you know, so, you know, they're, they're diet for how they feel about animals. Like, that's a totally understandable aspect of it for me. And that's fine. I'm like, I want people to know I'm in no way telling anybody how to feel, what to believe or even what to eat. I never tell anybody what goes in their body. That's my rule. Where I've lost respect for a lot of vegans is when they, they turn it into dogma and they start telling me what he what goes in my body. Right. And for me, that's no different than telling me to take vaccines or, you know, to, you know, big farm of pushing whatever on me. That's my body. That's my choice. So you, you all can feel free to do whatever you like to do. What, what is best for you and what you find moral, totally fine. I just don't like people telling me what to do. That's it. And, you know, so I always had that respect until they kind of came at me, you know, like a lot. And I'm not saying all of them are the same way. But, you know, there are, there are some vicious, vicious people in the, in the vegan, it's become a little colty. I mean, if I'm honest, you know, but that's how I feel about it. I think none of this would be an issue if we lived in harmony with nature. But because we live in dis harmony with nature and we're completely disconnected from where our food comes from, this problem has a reason where we're mass farming animals. Like I have killed animals for food before. I've worked on a farm where we used to hunt rabbits and we, you know, shot ruse and things like that were pests that were destroying crops. And we ate the meat or we gave the meat to the dogs. I enjoy going fishing. But it's never a pleasurable experience taking another creature's life. Like I feel bad stepping on an ant. I mean, it's not something that I go about. I don't kill spiders if I see one in the corner of my room. I'll take it outside or whatever. Like it's not a, I don't take pleasure in having to take an animal's life. But when you live in harmony with nature and it's a necessity, then it becomes a part of who you are and becomes a part of survival. And you then become more appreciative and you become more mindful and you develop this appreciation and relationship with nature and you have far more respect for the environment that you're living in and you want to take care of it and you want to do right by creatures. And if you do have to take a creature's life for your survival so that we can, because I believe that we're actually put here as sort of grounds keepers. Humans are here to look after the earth, not destroy it. If I have to take an animal's life and it has to give its life so that I can survive to continue to be the grounds keeper here, then so be it. Right. I think we've totally confused food with what it's really designed for and what it's therefore. I don't think food is meant to be there necessarily first and foremost as a thing for pleasure. I think first and foremost it's there for us to survive and to maintain relatively good health. But we've confused this. We've forgotten about that. We don't, we now no longer have that connection with food. We don't see it as a thing that's necessary for our survival. And we just gorge on things with, we're just mindless eaters. Right. And because we become mindless eaters and because we've lost that connection with mother nature, we now give that role of taking another animal's life to someone else and we're disconnected from it. We're like I guarantee you that if you told people who eat meat, if you put a knife in their hand and say go and kill that chicken, we'll go and kill that cow, we'll go and kill that lamb. Most people couldn't do it. And that's an issue beca