Fred Leuchter Interview with Jim Rizoli September 2015

Video Transcript:

Hi everyone, I'm Jim Rosoli. This is part of Rosoli TV and we have a special feature of our show tonight. We're going to be talking Fred Lutra and he's going to talk a little bit about where he's been since his days back in the 80s with the Ernst Sondel and all those type of things there. I'm going to be talking a lot about him. I should be very informative for you. So I want to welcome Fred to the show here. Thank you. Nice to have you here. This is a real special occasion for me anyway because I think of all the revisionists. Well, first of all, would you call yourself a revisionist? I do now. I did in 25 years ago. All right. All right. But when you think about all the revisionists that are out there, especially the ones publishing you're right. You're probably one of the most famous ones. I think that's probably true. And in those days after I had bent the Auschwitz and after I had testified in court, I considered myself a reluctant revisionist. Now after the Jews beating on my head for 20 years, I'm not reluctant to anyone. But we're going to get into all that. But what I want to get an understanding of you is I remember watching. Watching the video, Dr. Death. And in that video, which I might even play the last clip of that video, just to show people that clip. But in that video, it shows you at the end, walking down the street. Yes. All right. Now that always interested me because now I know you when I met you. I always wonder what happened to that man walking down the street in that video. And again, that video was done. What year was that time? Do you remember? 90. Six or nine? Okay. So it was saved. Let me remind you. So that's 20 years ago. Yes. Okay. So from that time period, you walking down the street. We knew nothing about you. We'd know anything. What happened to you? Where you've been. Where you lived. And I know that you're even living in Massachusetts. So basically, I would like to get into that. What happened since then to you and all the things that I've transpired from that? So that's what I want to get into. So maybe you can give us a little background of what happened from that time on with. Oh, okay. Before I do that, I would like to comment on something. I was at a revisionist meeting a number of years ago. After well after everything had happened. And I didn't speak that time, but I got up on the podium because Willis Cato introduced me. And I got up and a number of people had told me that they thought I had died. They had read some plays. So what have you? And I quoted Mark Twain at that time from the podium. And I told them that I was an evoluted about reports of my death having greatly exaggerated. You said that after me? Yes, yes. Okay. I don't know that. You see that? But anyway, after I testified in court, my life essentially was turned upside down. I was put through hell. I was prosecuted in court on a spurious charge of practicing as an engineer without a license. And one doesn't need a license. I don't believe in any single state to be an engineer. You only have to have a license if you certify a blueprint. And I didn't do that. I was persecuted. I had my friends threatened. I had lost job office. I was effectively put out of business in my execution equipment business because the Department of Corrections were afraid to deal with me. People who worked for the state and particularly Department of Corrections of political animals. And they were afraid. I had one warden. I know I was at a convention in the Midwest. It was actually in Missouri. And I walked into the coffee shop at the hotel. And it was a big curved coffee bar in the center. And I sat down and opposite him. And I looked at him and I waved. He looked at me. He got up and he walked out of the room. And when I got back to my room, I had a phone call. And his secretary had called me so I called the back. And she said, what and so on. So I wanted me to apologize. She says, but there's been so much political pressure that she said, he was afraid to be in the same room with you. Oh, well. So I mean, it was terrible. I had my house fire bombed. I had my friends threatened. I was even followed by two Mousad agents who came over from Israel specifically to follow me around during the time of my trial. I was informed by my cousin who had been informed by the gentleman who was ahead of the Massachusetts state police. And when we were younger, we grew up and we played with that gentleman who was ahead of the state police. At any rate, he called my cousin. He says, because of the fact that Freddie is facing the court now, I can't communicate with him. He says, but I'd like you to get a message to him. We've been advised by the state department and by the CIA and by the FBI that there were two Mousad agents involved in it. We don't know what they're doing, but they're being watched. Well, I was unaware of this until she told me. And for about three or four days, I was being followed and I didn't know why I was being followed. Well, at any rate, after I found out the day following that, I was being followed again by a vehicle with tinted windows. I think it was a Cadillac or some such thing. And I got into a semi-rural pot of molding and they followed me up the hill and I spun my car out and blocked the road. At that point, I got out of the car and I went down to the window and I pounded on the window of the driver's side. The gentleman rolled the window down. There were two very dark, I guess they were Jews from Israel. They could have been Arabs. They were Middle East in types. At that point, I reached inside my jacket and I pulled out a 45 caliber pistol and I touched his nose with it and I asked him what he wanted. Well, the two gentlemen in a car, as dark, complex it as they were turned white. And the next thing I know, they put the car in the reverse, fluttered, went up over the curb, hit somebody's fence, spun around and took off down the street from once they came. And I guess they didn't want some kind of an incident because I was legally carrying a firearm, I was legally protecting myself. They wouldn't look too good in the news media and with the police, if they're foreign agents of a foreign government, following somebody around. So that was the last I saw at them. I think they finally figured that I was a little too crazy to deal with. Now what was that about? I was a bit about 60, that was about 93. Okay, 94. But it was before I went to California. And anyway, I decided to, I had a job offer in California. So I decided to go to California. And my ex-wife didn't want to go. And she stayed behind and that's absolutely, I went out there on my own and that's where I met my current wife. What did you do for work up there? Well, I went out to a man or a computer company and he asked me to do some design work for him. While I was working for him doing design work, he was a Jewish gentleman and he didn't care about my background or so he said. But the fellow who was funding him, who owned the building that we were in, found out what I was down there. And I think he kind of pulled the plug on everything. They locked me out of my office. And I was essentially standing on the street with no place to go. I was only there for, you know, was only there for three or four months. So at that point, I had already met my wife Terry and I stayed with her and we got an apartment until I came back following, came back before Christmas. I went back to Pennsylvania because a fellow who I had worked for before had offered me a job, but he needed some design work done on a communications device. Okay. And then we moved from there. I brought Terry and the kids to Pennsylvania and then from Pennsylvania, we moved back to Boston. Okay. It's unemployable as an engineer. Nobody wants me because they were afraid of me. And I was never able to be employed again as an engineer. I got, I went to work as a driver at a homeless women's shelter. After I finished there, most of these places don't keep you very long because they don't want to give you a raise. You work about two years and then they find some reason to let you go. We don't have any more work. So I went from there. I went to a company that took from a drug and alcohol abuses to halfway houses. And I was there for a couple of years. And then from there, they let me go again because it was time for a raise. And I went from there, I worked for a company that was an adjunct of the transportation system in the greater Boston area called the ride. And I was taking older people and handicapped people to dark disappointments, etc. After I was there for six years, I was time for another reason. And they determined that I shouldn't be there. So they let me go. Now, what I like to ask you now is, I mean, that's happened since then. But maybe we can tell the people watching this, you are tying with the revisionist movement with the Zundle case. And maybe you can explain to how all that happened to you. Now, that's really how you got drawn into all this. Yes. Well, I have been working as an engineer for some 35 years or so. I had basically been designing navigation equipment. I have several patents for surveying equipment. Many of the people watching have probably seen the surveyor out on the street with what they call the total station. It's that big yellow orange transit that they now use, which digitizes all the information. And essentially, it does all the drawings and everything. So it took a great deal of work off the surveyor. I designed the device that transmits the motion of the telescope both horizontally and vertically into digital information. So it can be utilized by a computer. I never was able to do anything with that because the Swiss and the Japanese came over here. They paid $5 for a copy of my patent and they proceeded to make instruments based on my patent. I didn't have my pockets essentially weren't deeper than that. Engage in living. So that's basically what they do. They will just buy a patent and then they'll make it and then they have millions of dollars. You have no money. They have the device. My patent told me that if I didn't have a half a million dollars to throw down the tube initially, don't even start. And I didn't have that kind of money. I mean, the patent's expensive. My last patent cost me $89,000. But at any rate. So your name wouldn't be associated with that patent at all. Yes, well it's on the patent, which is on the instrument. Right, right. Then my father worked in the Massachusetts correctional system for over 40 years. And the past alarm in Massachusetts reinstated the electric chair. One of the officials at the State Prison asked my father if I would come down and meet them because he knew I was an electrical engineer and they quite frankly they needed help in making their equipment functional. I met with them and I talked with them and like everything else, the job kind of stalled because those things always occur three or four or five years after the legislation has passed. But at least they knew what they were doing. A year after they passed legislation eliminating the death penalty in Massachusetts. So we had none and we had none the year following that. However, because I had talked with the Massachusetts system, my name was passed around the other states that utilized capital punishment and they began contacting me and I began supplying bits and pieces of hardware until I was asked by the State of New Jersey to design the lethal injection machine. And I designed the machine. It was that we supplied the machine not only to New Jersey, but several of the states. I supplied an electric chair to the State of Tennessee. Did you have a patent on that? No. No. It's not a big enough market to want it. But at any rate so and because of that, I also consulted with a number of states on their gas chamber. I consulted with Mississippi. I consulted with California. But at any rate, I consulted with Missouri. Zundol was going, his first trial had been set aside and they were retrying him again. And they were getting ready to go to trial. And Dr. Robert Farrison, who was an expert on World War II literature. When I say literature, I'm talking about documentation that was generated during the war by the powers that were fighting. He had been a touch with Zundol. And he told Zundol, the only way you're going to be able to do anything is you're going to have to get an expert on gas chambers to come in and talk about the gas chambers, the alleged gas chambers. And I say alleged because that's important that we're at Auschwitz and at Birkenau and at any of the other facilities. And since this was the case, they spoke with the court. The judge tentatively authorized them to find an expert. Dr. Farrison's next contact was with the states and the United States to find out who made execution equipment and everybody sent them to me. All before we contacted me, he had a very long conversation with Bill Amitrault, who was the warden and later became the commissioner of correction in Missouri. And he was then directed to contact me. I was contacted a little surreptitiously at first because he asked me questions about my background. And then he asked me what I thought of the Holocaust and the gas chambers that we used to kill all the Jews during World War II. And I said, well, I don't know anything about them. He said, well, do you believe that they exist? And I said, well, yeah, yeah. So he taught me that in school. At any rate, the court approved me as an expert tentatively. I was brought to Toronto. I met with Doug Christie and Zunderman as legal. So this would have been what, 88? That year was 88. Okay. Yes. And I was given a lot of documentation. I had to do a lot of studying on the alleged concentration camps because I came in really wet behind the years. I didn't know what was going on. But in any right after I got all this information absorbed and I did a lot of studying on it. I also had a study on crematories. I had to find out how long it took to cremate a body with coal. How long it took to cremate a body with oil today. And there was a lot of material that I had to study as would any engineers doing a job. I was then, they then cleared me to go to Poland. I told Enzundal that if I found that the facilities could have been execution facilities, I would report that as such. And I would report. I told him that whether or not I found evidence if I found that they could have done it. I would also report that. Enzundal said, I'm satisfied that you're going to come back and believe that they were no gas chambers. So I went to Poland. When I got to Poland, I was just totally amazed. The whole thing was at joke. There were no gas chambers. The facilities that were supposed to have been gas chambers were no more than rooms with leaky windows and leaking doors. If you ever tried to use one for gas chamber, it would still be yourself while you were killing whoever was in the chamber. They said that there was equipment removed. There was nothing removed because from a design standpoint, it had to be holes in the walls, holes in the ceiling, holes in the floors. You have to have places where you got fans, ducts. None of that was removed. None of that was patched up. The stuff just didn't exist. So I wrote a report and I stated that I felt the facilities there in Poland not only were not gas execution facilities, but could not have been made into gas execution facilities. And I returned. I wrote the report. I testified in court. When we got into court, it was really an interesting situation because the judge didn't want to admit the report. And this is a copy of the report. You could show that, Kevin, too. This is the original report. There were three of them. I had one. And Zondal had one. And the court has the other one. At any rate, the judge refused to accept it as a report. Even though he accepted the fact that I was qualified to do the report. So what we had to do, I had to take the stand. And for over three days, I was questioned by Doug Christie. And everything in the report was entered into the record verbally. I read it from the report and I qualified it by explaining what everything meant. Now, did you read the whole thing? No, I was only allowed to read the parts relative to the gas chamber. That's where the interesting part comes. The court found that I was an expert on execution equipment. It couldn't deny that because I was certified by the federal court system in the United States. But I wasn't an expert on crematories. So therefore, none of my numbers on the crematories could be entered into the record by me. Doug Christie then sought out and got the top expert in Canada on crematories. That gentleman was given a copy of the report and he read it. Did you remember his name? No, I don't. His name is available with it. But I don't remember. Isn't his name Ivan Legacy? I think so, yes. Ivan Legacy, I think so. And he did what I couldn't do or what the court would allow me to do. He read my report into the court record. There are better. So no matter how you slice it, the judge didn't want it, but he got it all. And unfortunately, he choked on it. He found her and still he and subsequently the Supreme Court in Canada overturned the verdict of the second track. So he really didn't go to jail. He met him. He more or less was waiting for the verdict, the last verdict. Yes. But unfortunately, they eventually got him. And subsequent to my going to subsequent to my going to Poland and then to Canada, Enzondos Defense Team sent me back to Europe again to examine other facilities. How? How to castle? How to? And in the outhouse. While I was on that trip and the prime reason for my going on that trip. So I would be available in Germany to be what I did. That's a legal term. It's Latin, but it means that it means that they question you and your background to determine whether you're competent. And I was questioned by three judges on the superior court of, I believe it was my barrier. And they determined after three days of questioning that I was competent to testify in a German court on the existence of gas chambers. And that was important because that's something that they were never able to do before. Let the question of the gas chambers before the court. And after I was qualified, I then left and I looked at the other facilities and I subsequently wrote reports on them for instance. The reports were available through the Zondos website. But after doing that while I was in Germany, I spoke at a number of locations. I spoke only about what I did in terms of my investigation for the court. Only spoke about how I was persecuted by the Jews afterward. How they fire barbed by house, how the moussaid raised me. And all of the information that we've already talked about. And after I had returned to the United States, I didn't realize it. One belongs to me. They were plotting in Germany, certain parties were plotting in Germany to bring me back and charge me with breaking the law. And the law that I broke was called defaming the dead. And you defend the dead by saying that the gas chambers didn't exist. Now I was very careful about everything I said in Germany. So I never said that the gas chambers didn't exist. I said my testimony in Canada was that the gas chambers didn't exist. And how I was persecuted. But I was very careful, never to violate German law. When they have arrested you there, if you said something? Probably. But you see the problem was I was never arrested. I was contacted by the television show called the Shrinomaka Show. It's a woman TV personality, her name is Frau Shrinomaka. She has a show in Cologne, Kern, it's the Germans call it, television show. And the Germans are crazy for information about the electric show, which is the electric chair. I was asked to come over and talk about the electric chair. I made it very clear to the people that contacted me, her writers and her producers, that I would not discuss the Holocaust. I would not discuss the gas chambers that I was sure it's all what have you. I would only discuss the electric chair and its application in the United States. That's what she wanted. But I'm beknown to be again, she made a deal with the police in Vinehine, Germany. I didn't know this. I arrived and just before I went on camera, I was approached by three German police officers from Vinehine. One of them spoke English not well, but his English was better than my German. The other two gentlemen didn't speak any English at all. And I was told that I was going to have to go back to Vinehine with them and face trial in Vinehine because of what I said about the gas chambers. And I said, what have I said and where have I said it? Well, I said it in Canada. Well, I said, how do you get jurisdiction in Canada? I said, I'm an official of the court. How do you want to deal with a legal system in Canada? Well, it didn't seem to make any difference. I said, all right, I said, I assume you have a warrant. Let me see you warrant. Well, we don't have a warrant. I said, what do you mean you don't have a warrant? I said, how do you expect to make an arrest? Well, we're not making an arrest. I said, then what are you doing? He says, we're going to take you back to see a judge in Vinehine. I said, like, how are you going to take me back to see a judge in Vinehine? I said, I came over here to be on a television show at which point he pulled this wall for 380 out and stuck in front of my face and told me that I would be required to go back. I said, OK, that's the case. I'm not going to argue. I can stop a 380 like anybody else can. I didn't feel like being dead. So I was handcuffed at that point and I was taken across three states by police officers that were violating their own laws. Because I was essentially kidnapped, not arrested, and Shrininaka threw a fit because she told the cops, you promised he could be on television. And now you're taken number 4. He was. I said, sure, let me on television. I was about to tell the world on her national hookup that I was being kidnapped at gunpoint and they weren't about to let that happen. So at any rate, we drove through half the night and I wound up getting figure printed, mug shots taken. First time that ever happened, I mean probably the last time it ever happened to me. And I was thrown in a cell. The following morning, I was taken from the head to the courthouse and the information of my being taken. And I don't want to say arrest, but nobody knew I wasn't arrested except me and my ex-wife because she was there. And at any rate, I was taken to the court and Zundal had made arrangements for an attorney to come. And the attorney made an argument, but it didn't do any good. The judge just threw me into a cell at the Monheim Prison. They had a wing of unconvictance that a waiting trial and that's where I wound up. The judge instantly was, was, was, was, was said, Bawa, he was Jewish. So he, I explained to him and I complained to him that I was taken without warrant. He says it doesn't matter. He says I got you in now. So at any rate, I was thrown into a cell and I spent some three and a half months there while my attorney. And I had, the attorney that I first had was Zundal's attorney. And I subsequently was, was put in touch with another attorney who handled my case from there on out, Hio Hammond, whom I believe is subsequently passed away. Hio was a, he was very, very, he had very strong feelings about people that were held and put in prison for thought crimes. Which essentially is what happened to me. Hio was a German soldier during World War II on the Eastern Front. And he spent 11 years in a communist prison before he was released after the war. So he became a lawyer. So we could prevent that from happening again. And it took him two and a half months, all three months after that. But he finally got me a bail hearing. And I was subsequently handcuffed, taken out in a prison bus. The bus was very interesting because it had little rooms, the size of a telephone booth. And I was squeezed into it. And then a door was closed. Individual rooms. Yes. Okay. Now after I arrived there, I went before a three judge panel that was going to decide on whether or not I would get bail. Hio Hammond made all his arguments. And I hadn't said anything. I was then given the opportunity to speak. I spoke briefly. And the judge just said, well, we don't have to go any further. We're going to remand you without bail. And this is all going on in German. No, my German is not good. But I obviously had figured out at this point that I'm going back to the slammer. So I turned around to Hio Hammond. I said, what the hell kind of kangaroo court is this? I said, they haven't given me an opportunity to speak. I said, I'm a responsible individual. Well, the judge at that point stopped the proceedings. He said to Hio Hammond in German, what's your client's problem? And then he said, never mind. He turned around and he said to me in perfect English. They all understood perfect English. He said to me, do you have a problem with what we're doing here? And I looked at him and I said, you damn well, no, I got a problem with what you're doing here. I said, I'm a responsible business person. I said, I came over to your country for a television show. I said, I was seized at gunpoint, illegally transported across the half a dozen states against your own laws. And now I'm waiting bail so I could go home. And the judge says, well, if we gave you bail, would you come back? And I said, of course, I'd come back. So they said, give us a few minutes to deliberate. They went back, they come out 10 minutes later and they said, they're giving me bail. Now they got to do something with me while they're waiting for the bail because Hio Hammond contacted his contact for Zundel and Zundel had to post the bail. I was effectively bailed for something in a vicinity of $22,000. Oh, yeah, I was a master criminal. What a love. So anyway, at that point, the judges called us into chambers. Now we're in chambers. They ordered coffee and cakes. And I'm eating cakes and drinking coffee with the judges. I mean, you can see what their sympathies lay. After the wood, I went back to the prison. I got my belonging. I said, got my passport and everything. And I told Hio Hammond. And I said, I want the next plane out of here. And he said, there's a couple of, we'd like you to stay a couple more days because there were some people who would like to hear you speak. And I said, I'm not staying. I said, I want to be on the next plane. So I did get on the next plane. I came home and that was fine after I got home. I been, I wasn't touched with Hio Hammond. And I had plans to go back and face trial something along a year. What I think was going to be the following February. Well, as the time ran, it went by. He had been in touch with me. And about a week before he called. And I said, yeah, I'll make arrangements and I'll get a ticket. And I'll see you on set and set you date. Now while I was in prison, and prisoners, as most people know, stick together. I had a prisoner who used to feed me. He was called a chancer. And he brought the food to all of the cells. And he used to talk to me sometime because I was effectively held in solitary confinement the whole time I was there. Because I was what in this country they call a protective custody of me see because they were afraid somebody might try to kill me. And I got a call from an attorney who told me, he said, this call never is taking place. He said, I was asked to call you by any told me the person whose name I won't mention. Who was the chancer? And he said, he wanted me to tell you, don't come back. He said, the day after you left, your bail was revoked. There's an arrest on site warrant out on you. The judges were fired. And there's the Jewish mafia. I've got a contract out on you. You won't last several days in the prison. He said, I told you what I was asked to tell you this conversation never took place. And he hung up. I told my attorney and I said, I'm not coming back. He said, Fred, you got to come back. He said, I said, no. I said, he says that couldn't possibly have happened. He said they can't revoke your bail without telling me. He said, they couldn't fire the judges. He said, I would have to be served with the arrest warrant. Well, I okay. I said, well, I'm not coming back. I got a call back later the following day after he had been to court. He said, Fred, I don't know what to say. He says, everything happened exactly what he said. The judges were fired. He said, there wasn't a arrest warrant out on you, arrest on site. And he said, the court apologized for not sending any paperwork. It must have slipped through the cracks. See, they wanted to get the hands on me. They wanted me to come back. So what would have happened if you went back? And you obviously would have been convicted. I would have done seven to ten years. Oh, goodness. And it would have been for that law, desecrating the dead or whatever. Defaming the dead. Defaming the dead. Now, one of the interesting things that happened to me, or several of them that happened to me, most of the gods liked me and talked to me. They didn't treat me like a criminal. I may have been incarcerated in their prison wing, but they didn't treat me like another criminal. I mean, because obviously I wasn't. Most of them were Germans, and they probably didn't like what was going on anyway. But at any rate, when I first got in there, they issued me prison clothes, dungaries, and a denim shirt. And I was supposed to put it on. And I told the god, I absolutely refused to wear your clothes. I had my clothes. I had two pairs of pants. I had two shirts, and I had two changes of socks. And that's what I was going to be using. So the deputy warden come down, and he told me, you have to wear prison clothes. And I told him, I said, I am not going to wear your lousy clothes. I said, let me explain something to you. I said, these clothes, and I took my shirt, and I said, these are my only connection with the outside. As far as I'm concerned, I don't belong in here. And I said, I'm not taking these clothes off and putting your prison clothes on. And I said, you may get them off me. I said, but I'm going to tell you right now, you and the rest of your people are going to know you have been in one hell of a fight. So he looked at me, and he didn't quite know how to deal with that. He turned around to the god. He says, does he keep himself clean? And the god says, he washes his underwear, and it sucks every day. And he changes his clothes every day. He said, let him wear what he's wearing. I walk, I walk around, what anyway. So then at another point, I mean, I had people pounding on my door at 3 o'clock in the morning. The security in the prison was terrible. People from the convicted wing used to come through. They all had keys. That are all they could do. And they'd be pounding on my door at 3 o'clock in the morning telling me that they're going to kill me. I said, obviously, they were Jews. So I had an extra broom pole that I had because they changed cells on me when I first got there. And I waddle down the end of the broom pole, and I made myself a spear. And every time they opened the door, I was waiting with the spear. And the gods would look at it. They knew what was going on. So the gods didn't know anybody was worried. I was going to stab anybody. They knew I was going to stab, so I'd be the cabin after me. So I went on that way for over a month. And every time they opened the door, I was standing there with the spear, ready to lunge. At any rate, there was a shakedown in the prison, just like they do in the United States. Periodically, they could throw in a toss. Everybody's selling, looking for drugs, weapons, whatever. And the lieutenant came down. And that was the first time I have a metheleutanet. He introduced himself. They threw everybody's clothes and furniture and everything out onto the tear. He just put his hands under my clothes, didn't disturb anything. Apologized for the inconvenience and thanked me. And again, he didn't consider me a criminal. But just on a way out, he looked down and he saw under the sink by a spear. And he says, he turned around to the god. And he says, what's that in German? The god looked at it. And he got a little red face, because he didn't look like what to say. And he in German, he said, it's Luch's weapon. So the god looked at him. And he looked at me. And he says, I don't want to know in German. And he turned hard. And he walked out. Obviously, they were afraid. They weren't afraid that I was going to use it on them. They understood what was going on. So they understood that that why I had a weapon. But I spent most of my time in solitary. He sat there on Sunday night late around 10 o'clock, an hour before they locked us up. They let me go down and sit in the room with the fellow that fed us, the shots on him. And he used to make coffee and sit and have a cup of coffee and talk with them. I had the total three and a half months I was there. I got exactly two showers. And that's because they were afraid to let me out of the cell. When they did send me down to get the shower, it sent me down with a couple of great wings, skinheads. Oh, good. Habit of light me. So nobody was going to let me out. I went down. And the only, as I said, the security and the place was crazy. And in one respect, it sent me down to the shower with these right wing skinheads. But yet when I went to see my lawyer, or I went to the doctor, they just turned me loose. And let me walk across the prison yard with everybody in there. So you know, it was a crazy place. It's one of those places that old joke who's running the men to Shadin, Major, you know, crazy people were running and they said, it would prison. Now, when you, then you stopped in England. Did you stop in England before you come to the United States? Did something happen in England? Yes. When I went over there, the time I went over there to be qualified by the court. And I view Dachau and Mounthausen and Hanam Castle. I stopped in England. I was supposed to speak at a history club that David Irving was a member. He was the one who set it up. And unbeknownst to me, I received a letter from somebody saying that I was persona non-gratering and if I went there, I would be deported. But I gave it to my attorney. And my attorney spoke with the consul and also the ambassador. And they said there was no such information on it. Well, finally, there wasn't. And it was the case of the right hand not blowing what the left hand was doing. But we drove and took the ferry. And when we got to England, fortunately, we got there a day early and I was able to get down. The only thing I was able to do that was enjoyable was I saw a stone hinge. Okay. Then when I got back the following night, we were in the, my wife was in the audience and I got up to speak at the meeting of the historical group. We were in a hall in Chelsea. David Irving came up, just as I started to speak and said there was some gentleman waiting to talk to you off the site. And I look off the side and there's a bunch of cops out there. Right, I'll, what's this? So I said, well, what's going to happen? I said, well, maybe you better talk to them. So David Irving stood up and he said the police are asking to see Fred Loishto. So I went out to the hall and I had the, I had the chief inspector or the commissioner who was in charge of the, like a captain and this conclusion charged of the, of the station, the Chelsea station. And he told me, he said they got a complaint. He said, I'm, he says, we're a little unclear on the paperwork. He said, we don't know where it came from. But he said, I got a call from the home office, which is, which is, they give us a direction and I was told to detain you. So he says, I'm going to have to take you to the station. So I said, well, what about my wife out there? And he said, don't worry about her, I'll get her. He drove her to the station personally. They, they were being very admirable. I got out and there was, there must have been eight or 10 barbies inside this prison van that they got me in. And I'm sitting in the van. They didn't handcuff me. They didn't do anything. As soon as they closed the doors and we drove off and the, the chief inspector was out of the way. All the clubs jumped up and shook hands with me because I made an execution. And they were, oh, they were fans. Oh, they were all fans. Yeah. So I got to the station and I was allowed to stay in the lobby with my wife. So I was out in the, in the front of the police station until they changed the God change at one o'clock in the morning. At one o'clock in the morning, a new captain came on and he decided that I shouldn't be out there because he said, criminals are supposed to, people in the detainees supposed to be in cells. He didn't know what I wasn't care. So they threw me in the cell. Throw me in the cell with a psychopath who's in there for a, for a saltwater deadly weapon. He's already good at a number of people. He put him in, so I'm in there with him. And he asked me what I was in there for us. So I told him, well, he said, what the hell are these people doing? He said, we have freedom of speech in England. What do they think they're doing to you? So I'm not going to get it. For them, obviously. He likes me. They pulled me out again and put me in another cell. Yeah, they put me in another cell this time with somebody that wasn't as dangerous. But this poor kid that they put me in with, he was a snatch and grab crew. And he was crying to me. He said, it shouldn't have happened. He used to go into the department stores, he'd grab a television and run. Well, these guys, well, they, it was Christmas time. And it was just before Christmas. And they had this beautiful gold boot that they had on display. He thought it was just a display. He thought it was nice. He decided to get it for his girlfriend. He grabbed it. And they caught him at the door. And he says, I never took anything in my life. There was expensive. It was worth 120 pounds. 120,000 pounds, got it? Yeah, right. And they had special guards got it. And although you couldn't see them, he just grabbed it and ran. He said, they should never put out something that's that expensive in front of me. Anyway, and when the morning, oh, I was then, I was then pulled out of the, pulled out of my cell at two o'clock in the morning by a couple of idiot immigration officers. And they took me in a little room, turned a tapeie quarter run, proceeded to give me the third degree. And you know, I said, what are you people crazy? I said, I came over here to speak. I said, what do you think of? So I'm kind of a sub-dressant. I said, you be ridiculous. They questioned me till four o'clock in the morning with the typical good cop, bad cop technique that didn't get him anything. So finally, they left. And I was put back on my cell. Well, I'm in the cell. They fed everybody in the cell that was going out the court. But I'm not going out the court. I don't even get a cup of coffee. OK. The snatched grab kid, he starts pounding on the bars, screaming his head off, and the guy cops come over and they say, what do you want? And he says, he points to me and he says, get mine, my coffee. So I got coffee and a bag for breakfast. But they were going to leave me there because they didn't know what to do with me. I didn't exist on paper. OK. Well, then at seven o'clock in the morning, another agent shows up from him majesty's immigration surface. And he takes me in the room and he starts to talk to me. And he said, you know why I'm here? And I said, no, why are you here? I said, I've just been question for a long time. And he says, yeah, I know. He says, unfortunately, I saw the tapes. He said, he said, that's why I'm here. He says, you made a formal request to be sent home. I said, you're not right. I did. He said, well, I'm going to send you at your majesty's expense. I said, OK. He said, they never should have done what they did to you. He said, they're violating our laws. He said, getting something straight. He said, I don't know who you are. He said, I don't like you. He said, I don't dislike you. He said, I could care less. He said, but I'll be damned if I'm going to let these people violate our laws for whatever reason. You know, he said, that shouldn't have happened. He said, he said, you know what's plan for you? And I said, no, what was planned for me? He said, I'm the international law. He says, you requested to go home. And we should have sent you home. But they were going under a different section of the law that if you hadn't asked, they're going to deport you back where you came from. He said, well, you came from France. He said, we're actually to France. He says, we have three days to a week for France to refuse you. And he says, France would have refused you, because you don't belong in France. He said, then, prior to that, you went into Belgium to get to France. He said, you would have been given to Belgium. Belgium would have refused you. He said, then you would have been off into Germany. Germany refused you. He said, by the time this was done, he said, you'd have been in a cell for about 25 days. He said, but you're going home today. So basically, would you say that that was the Jews harassing you? So yes, yeah. I'm just trying to get back at you. Very definitely. Very definitely. Of course, I didn't do them any good. But as I said, they finally put me on a airplane. And they sent my wife and I home at her majesty's expense. We didn't even get to use our dickets. Now, if you went to Germany today, would you be arrested? Yes. OK. So you really can't go out of the country? You're ready to want? No. I can't go to a camp. OK. So you probably can't go to any of the 18 countries that are banned. The Holocaust denial is banned? Yeah, I can't go to any of the countries that are affiliated with the European common market. Oh, whatever. Yeah. You know, what most people, a lot of people don't realize is that the common market is more than just an economic alliance. There's a criminal alliance that goes with it. The fellow who sent the message to me, not to come back. His brother lived in Portugal. He was a German. He went to Portugal to visit his brother. Seven people were murdered in his brother's apartment. OK. He was arrested in Portugal in an investigation and charged with murder. After they investigated, they determined that he had nothing to do with the murder. So they let him go. And he went back to Germany. When he got back to Germany, the German officials arrested him and threw him into jail. And they're trying him for murder. And he said, but I was exonerated by the Portuguese police. And it doesn't make any difference. The Portuguese police aren't going to come to Germany to testify for her because somebody has to pay them to do that. He didn't have any money to pay them to do that. But he's being prosecuted in Germany because Portugal was part of the common market. You know, so. Wow. Are you on a no-fly list? I don't know. Because you haven't been flying. You haven't been flying. OK. Fred, I do have some questions. I would like to ask you about your look to report. Now, this is dealing. Is this two reports or one report? This is one report. OK, one report. This was the original report that was done for the court in Toronto. It's entitled, an engineering report on the alleged execution gas chambers at Auschwitz, Berkonao, and Midonic Poland, dated April 5, 1988. OK. Now, the questions I have in there about, let's deal with Kremeau I in Auschwitz. Right. You went in that building, right? Right. OK. And maybe you could explain to the view and audience. If they say that the first of all, explain to me how they would have said it worked. They claim they have these cyclone pellets. Right. They throw them into the hole and it goes on the ground. How does it work? How would it work according to the way of going? Trouble is they don't know how cyclone be works. And the people that came up with the procedure that supposedly worked couldn't possibly work. Let's talk about cyclone be for a moment so we know what it is. Prior to World War II, Aldoana, 30s and in the 20s, they used to fumigate with hydrogen cyanide gas. German, the Germans improved things. And they've been well known for their scientific advances, et cetera. They wanted to come up with a better way to handle hydrogen cyanide gas so you wouldn't kill yourself. Normally what happened was you generated the gas on site. The gas fumigated we were, then you vented it or opened it up. They did it with houses. They did it with factories, et cetera. They would simply throw sodium cyanide into dilute sulfuric acid and water mixture. And they'd cover the building with a tent. They'd let the gas be generated. Day later, they took the tent down. They wore masks so they didn't hurt themselves. And they had the place out. Well, what the Germans did is they took the gas after they made it. They made it at the factory instead of making it on site. And they allowed the gas to be absorbed in truck pellets. It was either mine truck or sometimes they used crushed up seashells. It could be gypsum. Yeah, it is gypsum. It gets absorbed in that. Now, in order to get it out of the pellets, you had to blow hot air through the pellets. It was designed for use and chambers that they used for fumigating, which they had a furnace that went by oil or coal or some other method. They put the zycolon bee pellets in a big strain. It was contained in the held pellets. They forced hot air with the blower up through the pellets. The gas, the absorbed gas that was in the pellets, now becomes gas again. It's a procedure that chemists call sublimation. Can you see this? The gas, or is it invisible? No, you can see it. So it becomes like a mist, a white mist. It becomes like a cloud. Cloud. Yeah. And if you don't blow it, which is what they do in the fumigation chambers, they have the stove at one end. They sublimated the gas in the stove, and they had blowers that blew it through all the clothes that were hanging. And there was one end, the door at the other. And the same thing they did in the US space program when the people come back from the moon. They went in one door. They were decontaminated, and they came out the other door. And that's what they did. They put the clothes in one end. They fumigated it, and they took the clothes out the other end. And it was an easy way to handle hydrogen sand. They have a tall stack on the thing, and they fumigated it for several hours. They have drops of the gas. They have a boot right here, and for several hours. Let me ask you this though. With the cyclone-beat pellets that they had, how long? OK, say they double them on the ground. Because they say they put them on the ground. I don't know how that would work on the ground. If you put these pellets on the ground, how would it give off gas? You have to blow the hot air. That's correct. And presumably what happened at Cremel 1, that's at Auschwitz. They had this long room, which was actually a mark. It was a license calendar. They had these holes in the roof. They were like vents. And they took the covers off them. And the SS officers, and now we remember, you can't touch cyclone. They were taking hand poles of it, throwing it down through these holes, went down on the floor. Then presumably the gas went up and killed them. Well, in the first place, this is out in the middle of the Polish countryside. When these executions all took place, it was on wintertime. So it was cold. Right. So it could have it. So the gas chamber itself, all the room that they call the gas chamber, was actually the mark. It was probably below zero. So you're not going to sublimate any gas. Plus the fact, let's assume you could sublimate. These people that were presumably put into the chamber were put in unrestrained, which means that they could cause a spark. And they got hobdails on their boots. Anyone of a number of ways they could make a spark. The gas is extremely explosive. So they made a spark. And I'll tell you something. If I was going to be gas with 500 other people, I'd make a spark and blow the room up. It would be sure they would have done the same thing. Right. Of course, they're going to say that people had no clothes on. So they're not going to have any metal on them or anything. So they're going to have no clothes on. But they do have lights in there. Right. They have a light. They want to explosion. So I mean, but you could just bring the light in a spark. Yes. Yep. They didn't have any exposure to lights. None of the doors were pressurized doors. But it was just a joke. Now there was a little difference in the procedure that was used in Krennus 2 and 3 at Birkenau. They allegedly had a metal cage that came down inside. And they filled the cage with Cycle on B. Another brilliant idea, because if you packed the cage with Cycle on B, it's everything is compressed together. You'd never get anything out. But, you know, so I mean, the whole thing is a joke. These facilities could not have been used for gas execution. That was Kremawon. You should probably sit closer together, right? Oh, no, that's fine. What, what, what good? That's Kremawon. Yes. And then you had the, the other Kremaw 4 and 5 and of course they blew those up. Right. Those were the blow up. Kremaw 2 and Kremaw 3 were full fledged buildings with crematories, the had basements. Right. They even had a conveyor belt from moon and bodies around. They weren't execution facilities. Kremaw 3 and Kremaw 4 were brick buildings that were on one level. They had normal windows in them. They certainly couldn't have been used for gas chambers either. Those buildings, the only thing left is the, is the floors, which was a poor concrete slab and a few bricks on the corners and stuff because the local poles robbed all the bricks left after the war. Now if we go back to, if we go back to Kremaw 2 and Kremaw 3, they were allegedly destroyed by the SS before they evacuated the camp. And they may well have been destroyed by the SS before they evacuated the camp because, I mean quite frankly, if I was evacuating someplace in the enemy what's coming, I don't want the Russians to get what I had. I'm going to blow the buildings up anyway. But those facilities were made, they were full, crematories with mocks. And I mean, you have to remember that all hospitals, all public buildings where they were people lived, all had crematories in Europe. They had long before they ran out of cemetery room. So it was standard procedure, the cremator, that was normal procedure. Yes. But that's why they have them. I mean, they pointed these things and they said these people have these things. Well, yeah, they have them because they didn't have any cemetery. Right, right. Now did you, you didn't go to Triplanker, any of those did you? No. Okay, so you only want the camps that you mentioned. There's nothing there. Right, no, I know, there's really nothing there. Have you seen me the last video by David Irving? He actually was talking about Triplanker. He actually was thinking that millions of people were killed there. And I just don't understand how he could go there because you know. He's done the same thing that that that that that might web her as done. They're talking about limited gassings. Absolutely impossible. With the technology that the SS had, they did not, were not capable. They couldn't do a competent gas execution. They couldn't execute one person, like loan, right? And you know, and with all the stuff that they've done at these camps, they've had, they've brought in ground penetrating radar. They've done all kinds of things. They can't even find any bone. I know, I know. They haven't found anything. Right, right. Well, the biggest promise, not really the people that you can kill, it's get rid of the body. I mean, what do you do at the point? I mean, if you get, you know, now they say, I should one, a million people went through it and we can't do that. And it's like, okay, fine. If you believe that, where's all the bodies? Well, you know, as I pointed out, several times when I spoke, they would have been cremating bodies up into the 90s. You know, if you deal six million, right? Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know that. Yeah. It makes no sense. It makes no sense. I mean, in my investigation, what I've come in all the information have come to, you know, especially the camps that like Treblinka now, I think of Treblinka and there's nothing there. I mean, there's absolutely no point. I mean, there's no transit camp. I don't understand. What simply amounts to the fact that they were railing, they brought people into the, they sent to the other camps. What they can't seem to get through their head is that the Germans needed laborers in the factories. You don't kill your laborers. If it wasn't for Auschwitz in Birkenau, the German Army and Air Corps would have stopped functionally because they were making, that was the IT problem, Boone rubber facility. They were making artificial rubber. They couldn't get any real rubber because we shot them off. So without that, you wouldn't have any airplanes, you wouldn't have any gas kits, you wouldn't have any tires, you wouldn't have any, any, any bushings for the tanks. Nothing would have rolled. So you have to keep all these people working out. Nobody said that the Nazis were nice people. They put all these people in prison camps to make them work. But they also in the camps, they treated them decently. They kept them well. They were given medicine. They found out Auschwitz had a symphony orchestra. Auschwitz had a swimming pool. All these things, all their medallies. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And did they execute anybody? Yes. They executed the people that the Germans, that the Jews tried themselves. If I was a Jew and I was in the camp and I killed another Jew, they tried me and like Pontius Pilate, they conducted the execution. No, no, no. We're not denying that Jews were killed. But any Jew that was killed, I would think would have been subversive. You know what I mean? Right. An enemy of the state, or they did something criminal, or whatever. But of course, you know, you're not dealing in the military. No, sure. And they also used some of these prisoners in the concentration camps for medical experiments. They used a high altitude test. They pumped there out of the chambers. And we got a wealth of medical information after the war. And nobody raised a question, maybe we should be all nice people. And maybe we should say, we shouldn't use this information that was gotten properly. There wasn't, you know, they murdered people to get this information. So maybe this medical information should be thrown away. No. You get the information you use it. We took it after the war. So I mean, everything they did they had a purpose to. Right. Now, you know, it regards to, you know, why do you think that, I mean, I can only answer because I've studied it, but I mean, maybe the people here. Why do you think that Jews are out against guys like you that are trying to just tell the truth? Well, what do you think the game is? Because we're rocking their boat. And since we're watching, Israel has been making a fortune on it. Right. I mean, it's an industry. It's a, they're making thousands of dollars. Germany gives a million dollars every year to Israel. And, you know, the average Jew believes it. But I think I may have told you one time in the past. When I was on trial for practicing as an engineer with our license, I got a call from a Jewish gentleman who lived in the Los Angeles area. And he called me up to tell me. He said, I wanted to express my opinion on this. He said, I don't think what they're doing to you is right. He says that the Jews in your area and the Jewish organizations are persecuting you the same way that we were persecuted by the Nazis. And that's wrong. He said, but you are still a despicable person. And I said, why am I despicable? He says, because you made the gas chambers that they use that Auschwitz in Bertha now. And I said, later on, let's back up a minute. What are you talking about? I said, do you know how old I am? And I said, I was born in 1943. He said, oh my god, he says, I'm 10 years older than you. And I said, yeah, he said, he was in the concentration camps. He said, I have a white paper that was sent out by the Benebrieth scene that I built the gas chamber. Okay, so that's why they're after you. I said to him, I said, would you please send me a copy of it? Oh no, I couldn't do that. I might get in trouble. I knocked the phone. That's interesting. So what they did is they just got a lot of propaganda against you to make it look like you're like a demon. You were killing all these people. Right. You made the equipment. They killed a lot of those. What they said about it. I mean, I didn't really catch that one. But yeah, I can see why they're getting that. I mean, if someone told them that. And you know, everything that I said in my report has been confirmed by a Yad Vashim in Jerusalem. They have a copy of the report and they say that everything Fred Lutcher said in his report for the Zondel Trial is essentially correct. However, it doesn't really matter because the Nazis would despicable. Right. I mean, let's punish them for what they did. Let's not punish them for what they didn't do, right? Which is what they're doing. I mean, you know, Germany has been abused for the last 70 years. That's the war. They've been abused. And the people in Germany, they, most of them believed that they murdered all these Jews. Yeah. And, you know, the world should be ashamed of itself for what they did. I think more Germans died than Jews. I mean, you guys said people died. Problem. I mean, they said that at the end of the war, a lot of the German soldiers were killed because they didn't feed them. And all the bombings that happened within the cities of Germany, they're bombing at the end of the war and killing innocent people. And the real Holocaust was threatening. Right. And there were two Holocaust in Japan too. Right. Not that I have a problem with the, with the, with the dropping of the bombs in, in Japan. I believe that they shot in the war. The problem, I don't think it was a good idea to drop the bombs because the man who was in charge of the Air Force, Curtis Lemay, he said, I can do the same thing in less than a month with fire bombs. He told Truman. And he said, let's not open the atomic cannon. Well, control made it. Because it was already determined by, by FDR what was going to be done. All he was, he was carrying out the work of the Jewish brain trust that, that, that, that FDR. But I mean, I don't think, no, I don't think we should have dropped the bombs because we forever have a black eye for doing that when we didn't need to. Right. And yes, the Japanese needed a lesson because they would have fought us with pitchfrocks. I mean, they would have fought us with anything they could have when they landed. The same thing as somebody evaded this country. Admiral Amato said, uh, uh, said that before the war started, before Pearl Harbor because he advised to get to Pearl Harbor. He said, there's a, there's a, there's a rifle behind every blade of grass in the United States. And if we defeat the military, he says, then we got to deal with the people. And he says, we ain't going to win. Right. Yeah. So the same thing would happen to Japan. We would have been fighting the populace with stones and rocks and, and, and, you know, everything. They wouldn't have one down easily. No. But I, I think Lame could have done the same thing with some fire bombs. Right. No, I mean, without, without irradiating the planet. Yeah. Right. Because we've become, um, okay. So in regards to your report, you said there's only three of them. Again, just, we'll get just one of the other. Yeah. Original looped a report right there. And you would think that put that in, in Washington archives there. What do you call it? Probably not in my life. Well, I mean, it is something that really has turned the tide in regards to revisionism and, you know, what's going on there. Drone dose copy was less than it. And then when I fire bomb this. Yes. The one in the court, a lot knows what happened to it. The one in the court was copied by, strangely, up the area nations. And they printed the copy with their name on it. Oh, really? I had a lot of people call me and ask me about that. I said, I had nothing to do with it. It's a public record. Right. And you only get a court transcript. Right. And I think I might have seen it on the internet too. Maybe places. Right. Right. But, uh, Zundel has copies of it. He doesn't anymore, but his wife, Henry, has copies. No, um, say, can I root off, kind of, uh, give some information on it? How do you feel about what he wrote about? Well, did you read his book about it? I did read the whole thing, but, uh, unfortunately, what we've got here is we've got a, a bit of a tempest in the tea pot. People have said that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, uh, Gammai Rudolph was critical of the report. Yeah. Uh, he really wasn't critical. Uh, the problem, the problem is that I'm an engineer. I build things. I approached it totally different than he does. He's, uh, he's an egghead. He's a scientist. Uh, he's a PhD and a chemist. He approaches everything from theoretical to them. Right. I approach everything from a physical standpoint to different abilities. I can. Uh, and, you know, some of his stuff has been misunderstood. Uh, I don't know if you, if you saw recently, uh, in the dispute with, uh, with, uh, uh, bird with bird. Yeah, with, uh, uh, Fritzburg. It was critical of me because he said that, uh, that, uh, uh, uh, Gammai Rudolph said I was wrong. It isn't explosive. And Gammai Rudolph responded by saying, I didn't say it was explosive. It wasn't explosive. What I said was both you are right and Fred is right. It depends. Gammai realizes that, that it, we have two different approaches. Uh, and he approached it, uh, differently than I did. And that's the, that's the only difference. Everything I said was substantially correct. I'm not a chemist. Uh, I, uh, I, uh, I was briefed by a chemist who was the, uh, was the chief chemist for DuPont in their facility for making hydrogen cyanide gas. And he was the one that told me how to deal with it, how it works and how the blue residue that's left is ferro cyanide in what it is. Now my explanation of it probably wasn't as intense as, as Gammai Rudolph would have, would have liked. He, he was very much stronger, but essentially he said the same thing. Uh, Fred and I said the same thing. Which I came from different. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really see that Gammai was against it, uh, but I do see that. Yeah, because he's a chemist, right? So it's a whole different frame of thought. Yes. And how that is. Um, on, on concluding up here, Fred, is, is there anything you would have done different when you think about, uh, what happened? I mean, you know, and you really look at your life, what happened? I mean, uh, what do you think you could have done different that would have been, what it made it easier on you. Probably not do it, right? Not to do the, uh, not to go over to Poland and, and get in there and, uh, do the rest of you know, the, you know, the one in the shot of it is that, uh, I guess I couldn't have done anything any different. Yeah. Uh, I, uh, you know, I, I became involved in executions to stop torture and, and, and punishment. Uh, I was the only one who could deal with the problem that Zundle had. Uh, you know, I thought about this a number of times. First, as an American, I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of thought. Second, I believe that anyone who reveries has got a right to a proper legal defense. No matter what his charges are, those two things lead me to say that I would have done the same thing over again, even if I knew what was going to happen. Because Zundle had a right to defend himself. And, uh, you know, he, he also has a right to believe what he wants and nobody has a, has any right to interfere with it. So, uh, Canada doesn't have a bill of rights like we do. Right. Uh, they had something that was kind of watted down that shot. But even so, it was an absolute supreme court struck down what they did to us. Right. Right. Of course, his, his life hasn't turned out too well. No, he's, he's in Germany. I don't even know if he's going to be coming back to this country. No. He probably won't. He's probably going to die in a black province where he is. He's, he's where he used to live when he was a youngster. But, uh, you know, uh, I mean, I think he should be brought back to the United States. And I think she should be given citizenship. He shouldn't be separated from me. No, I know. I know. Do you, do you, do you got a chance to talk to her yourself? No. I, I once had a great while I talked to her on the internet, I talked to her on a couple of times. Um, I don't only know English, but, uh, you know, uh, and she really doesn't know me. Because we've never, uh, it's unf