The New JFK Show #268 Robert Knudsen

Video Transcript:

All right, welcome to the new JFK show everyone number 268. Tonight we've got Robert Coulson is going to be the main topic and there's a HSCA interview and document that we're going to be going through. So Larry knows a lot more about this and I do, but I'm going to go ahead and get the cast the characters going and get the slideshow screen share. Okay. I said, here's a White House photographer we're going to be talking about. Now this is the other photographer, the Navy JT Stringer. He took certain photos of the autopsy and then later on come to find out that Robert here has done that. I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce his name. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. All right. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. Kudson. I mean, this Newtson and his white blood. It's all him and though not officially in the in the Warren commission, but this is his. Wow. He died of a heart attack in 74. Wow. Yeah. Obituary 61. Right. And if you notice down here, he was part of the photographing. The slaying president JFK on. Yeah, he was on the staff for Truman Eisenhower Kennedy Johnson and Nixon. Five of them. Yeah. So he was around a long time. He just kind of got stuck in a place where he didn't really want to be. And he was interviewed and that's where we're going to go right now. I'm going to. That out. Whoops. Whoops. That was out of slide show Gary. Yeah, we're going to get out of that. What? No, why did you get out? I mean, they would normally show the whole screen, you know? Yeah, but I'm going to go ahead and get my doctor right there. We're going to read our. One second. There it is. So I go back to screen chair. All right, let's go to full screen. That. Okay. Talk to us a little bit. Larry on this one. No, I guess what you're putting up there is a document. That. Douglas Warren mentioned and cited. In the recent all of a stone documentary. And if I'm not mistaken during the program, he mentioned that. This document had been suppressed. Including by the HSCA by Robert Blakey. For 40 years. And he, you know, they didn't know why until they read the document. Can they realize that this was a smoking gun here with the information that was contained. I think it's only 50 something pages. But. You know, we're talking about 1990 mid 90s. You know, when this document file surfaces. But they had it. Since the HSCA, you know, and it, you know, it's. Proplexing to say the least. Why? You know, why maybe you're a gym, you know, can come up with an answer. You know, as far as that, you know, if it's such an important document. You know, and the house select committee of assassinations was so intent on. Finding out the truth about the assassination of JFK, you know, and. Except it wasn't Larry. We know. I mean, look at that. How. That's why I mean, I'm being sarcastic. I'm. Archaistic. Yeah. Well, let me just pick up here and see they say, could you please date for us your position during the early 1960s? Newtson, I was at White House photographer. During what years? Yeah, during what years you can flip to the next Gary, you can go. I'll just pick up parts of it. 1958 to 1958. Well, let me, let me, let me before you go into that, let me just say that. Half of the document is actually him trying to squirrel away, trying to get away from this. So very important testimony. Right. He had taken an oath to not disclose anything to the secret service. So in the middle of the document, they say that look, we'll get a hold of the secret server. I think his name is golf. The head of the secret service and eventually they take a few recesses and then he gets. Permission from the head of secret service. They started. They started making phone calls. They started making phone calls. You know, I just wait a minute to get it not just the head of the secret service, but the legal counsel of the secret service, which is going to hold it in a whole different direction. You know, like what is the legal parameters or issues of my testifying before the house select this house, the committee here, you know, when, you know, they have the mandate, which they have, you know, and to hell with the secret service. But you know, even with that happening, you know, they had to go and until they obtained that permission, quote, unquote, you know, they were not able to actually get the important information out of. Yeah. And then later on, it's interesting that they say not to talk to any JFK boss or people looking to find information, but you can talk to the house select house select committee is okay. Because they're going to bury anything you say that's important. Whereas the boss would get it out to the public. So that's what we want to avoid at any cost. Right. So I think that they were concerned about us way back then. So. All right. Okay, Dr. Fedser. Well, I don't want to read it. I know. You can tell tell us which parts I should read. You should, I think at half go around age 27, I think. You're so on there. Because I mean, it's just. I can't tell. Yeah, some of the. I mean, the information that he brought to the table is just so incredible. You know, my job just dropped, you know, or a page. I see wrong. Because I don't know what you went way too far, Gary. Yeah, I see it in top. I couldn't see the page number, but I see them. I hear we go right around here. I think. Okay, let me see. Okay, the number of prints. Yeah, you can start with that. See if you can. I was going to start 27. You worked in the White House until 1974. Is that approximately as a correct crack? What do you do? Go for the back. Go for the back. One more. Gary, go. Okay, right there. Okay. Now, now, right here, I should point out that we have the full cooperation. That's where you should start at the top left. All right. Top of page 24. I should point out we have the full cooperation of the Secret Service and other government agencies and obtaining all other information and there were other orders that came down pertaining to this material on the autopsy. That had been for. It's as formerly rescinded. I think it means for Malib rescinded. But maybe formerly meaning already rescinded by government agencies so we could pursue the investigation. I am sympathetic to your concerns, meaning Newtons has been hesitant. I'm not sure you recognize the evidentiary significance of what you're saying here today. In the importance of what you're not saying relative to other people's testimony, relative to examination of prints that we have made, Mr. who it's on. I think this would clarify the whole situation. If the prints were examined, then I would not be in the spot that I am that I'm sworn not to disclose it. It would give a very definitive answer to you as to the number of prints. Pretty. I should say that we have had access to. Well, the number of probes. The number of probes. Ah, yes, very good. Probes, very good. Number of probes, yeah. You mean like the back probe and was. All the way through his body. All the way through his body. I get that a probe all the way through JFK's body. That's right. That's right. Several, several. Two. Really? He saw a picture of two distinct probes going through the president. That's better. It gets, it gets, this is why. Let go ahead. All right. Okay. I'll let you know. Yeah. Do the color commentary. Party. I should say that we have had access to the autopsy photographs and the questions I'm asking remain unanswered. I still like to ask again if either we could arrange or if you could arrange with the secret service. Have this or lifted. If you then would be willing to cooperate with us, Mr. Hootsie, I will cooperate as far as I can as I say, birdie. If you are willing, we can take a short break and we can call the secret service. I could give you the number and you can call them. We can just ask a few other questions. Have you gained a clearance and then reconvene on another day if that's convening with you, Newton, whichever you prefer, birdie. And I think we'll take a recess at this break. So what are we going to do with that secret service, be able to authorize his talking? I don't think this is a answer. Not just the secret service, but the legal counsel Robert golf. You're going to see in a second. Okay. Okay. So I come back from this short break, birdie. We are resuming the deposition during the break. I spoke with John Meahan and assistant to Robert golf and he's going to contact Robert golf general counsel for the secret service for the record. The time is now 10, 28 a.m. Newton, Mr. Newton, was this a totally unique situation, specifically the making of these prints and the number of sets that were made or was this kind of a standard procedure for sensitive photographs. Nudes and I do not understand the question. Or there are other very sensitive photographs that you had to deal with that maybe were handled in a similar way as those with the secret service being involved in the transport of them with a certain set number of prints made up. A definite number of sets of prints made up was this customary procedure for a sensitive material. I have to say that this pretty guy was pretty well prepared, you know, for this. He didn't step in the mud like he was trying to get him. I agree. I mean already he's been very specific about this in a listening whether this was a unique situation. And he's cornering him, you know, very effective. Excellent. I did not recall any other time secret service ever escorted me for something like that needless to say continue. Yeah. Did he go? Come on. I just go one up. Okay. What was the number seven of customary numbers and sets of print Nudes and no I cannot tell you why sticks it sticks in my mind very strongly. Pretty could it have been seven prints are you very sure it's seven sets of rents Nudes and I know it could not have been seven prints because that would not have covered a print for each native. How many negatives were you how many prints were made Nudes and I do not recall per. Could you give me a rough idea for example whether a similar number of color and black and white prints or was there a greater number of one than the other Nudes and no black and white prints made to my knowledge. That's the key. That's the key. He did not have a white prints. He only did color prints and the amount and the sets he's very specific during the whole interview but very good very good very good. Whether similar number of black and white negatives is compared to color it seems to me approximately ten negatives color negatives. I do not recall this is an approximate. Do you think there were approximately ten color prints made Nudes and no approximately ten color negative seven prints of each of these you made seven prints of each negative Nudes and yet so that we seventy four. He's very sure about that. And so that each set consists of ten color prints. 12 in 12. It says 10. 12. It says oh 10. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay, ten in each set. Okay, right, right. Nudes and approximately. We talked about seventy prints. That's what I said seventy prints. We don't know about any seventy prints of the Jeff. I know. I know, I know, I know. And I got the sneaky feeling Robert Groten is some arrow in the background here concealing a whole lot of facts. He actually knows but isn't willing to reveal there again. Taking this from it seems to me there were five holders that they took into the dark room if there were five holders ten negatives if there were one expose she. And there would have been nine negative perty where there are approximately ten black and white negatives are a greater or less. He's still talking about black and white. There was one total film black that would have been twelve negatives black and white. 30. Did you make an index of the princess describing each one Nudes and no was one made to your knowledge not to my knowledge you worked in the white us till nineteen seventy four approximately correct. What did you do that photographer private I was employed by the US government on June 20, 1965 I had my twenty years in the Navy and I requested retirement. I was vise that I could retire provided I would stay in a civil service capacity. I would have my services to continue so I retire I can tell you the exact date just a minute pause I retired on the 11th of June 1965 which was a Friday I work Saturday and Sunday went on civil service payment on Monday. Payroll yeah good on the 14th of June I went to the civil service payroll perty could you describe what you're reading that from Nudes and Navy retirement card. I had a date of retirement on there I know that was a date I retired I know it was a Friday they have the fine art celebration. Hey Jim you were in the Navy do you have one of those I was in a Marine Corps. Oh I retire my card you got it it's a DD 214 that you're right. Right right these 248. Yeah yeah so I mean I've got I've just got my military you know reserve. I remember some time ago some people tried to you know try to what was it insinuate that you were not really in the Marines remember that time. Yeah I don't know what he was after that was very bizarre this isn't guy you know I suspect it may have been the guy who calls himself Lenny pauser claiming that he would get $50,000 to my legal defense fund if I could prove I'd been in the Marine Corps. I went I went ahead and proved I'd been in the Marine Corps. 82 14 the whole bit photos of my uniform. So lots of photographs and service being commissioned. We're having my promotion to captain where my wife put the bars on my. But of course he never paid off the whole thing was some kind of scam but I've never figured out. What it was why he would want to see my DD 214 I just never figured that out Larry. I think when they were just trying to play you or something. Oh sure. I mean I knew that from the beginning I mean I didn't get to get me $50,000 to your defense fund okay. Yes it's ridiculous okay. Is this people stop import to read isn't there other stuff yeah we can go down a little bit more when it gets a little more serious. Have you had any contact did you have any contact with any other autopsy related materials while you were working at the White House during those years. Nudes and not to my knowledge. Did you ever have knowledge ever were you ever told about autopsy X raise for example no. I do not know that you were ever taken he didn't even know about the X raise party. Did you know from your personal knowledge or what you were told about the existence of any tissue related materials from the autopsy itself such as slides or tissue sections or paraphernal blocks. He's really he's really taking all all the all the important details you know and eliminating the ones that would not apply you know that's what I'm taking out of here you know the obviously you know Nudson would not have had anything to do with slides or anything like that but at least you know he's throwing it out there to see if there was any reaction. I'm I'm extremely impressed with party. Yeah I was I was told I do not know who was at the work tissue was taken from the back of the head I say I was told I do not know. Did you also learn with that material was being kept when you learned of his existence I was told was taken at the time of the autopsy at the Naval hospital because I would just assume it was studied out there because I understand they have a fine setup there is any place it would be an assumption I do not know. Did you ever come into the possession of any information about where those tissue materials were kept or. Next page on time. Here you what happened to them Nudson know we will take another short break Bob Ma we'll go back on record the times now 11 12 a.m. We still been able to get the call back from Robert go for the secret service so Mr. Nudson I did as I said talk to John me how to work for golf he's trying to get in touch with him but we you were in the Navy at the time I believe is that correct that is correct I will show you this time a letter that we sent the secretary defense asking the order of silence given a new Navy person will be lifted in the response and I give you my assurance that the secret service is no more writing with. It is only a question of the communication getting through specifically this letter request that the order of signs we lifted and that pertains to the people present at the autopsy of present I show you this letter it is dated February 27 1978 to Harold Brown secondary defense and just take your time to read that pause if you have a problem going into the details of your recollection we can convene it another time the question I probably would recall. As good now as I could later like I said it's been a long time we have gone over quite a few of your recollections and we're going to show you in a second the color autopsy prints that we have and ask you whether the prints that you are shown are consistent with your recollections of them when you saw them of primary point we are going to cover are the number of location of wounds and the other details of the photographs that you described generally such as a presence of metal probes in the photo. And the presence of rules in the photographs and what have you are you confident now that you saw metal probes in the photographs news and yes are you confident that the metal probes are actually through the wounds when you saw them yes I'm certain of that because it showed the point of entry and exit with the bro where there ever photographs that you have seen either before this instance or since that incident you might be concerned with the confusing with your recollection of these photographs to my knowledge I've not seen anything regarding I've never seen any photographs of it other than next page. Gary. Yeah. It's just a little probes now metal probes other than the ones taken there perty have you seen photographs of any other autopsy snow have you seen photographs of any other dead bodies that may have probes in the picture of any other dead bodies that may have been taken there. Yes I have I'm certain on the Kennedy there were the probes showing the point of entry and exit how many probes were there that you saw to give it picture what is the most probes you saw to give it picture at one time I know there were two two mental probes that were through wounds when you saw them yes will take a break. There's a lot of people who are in the time now 1128 of course it's getting hot. It's getting very good. I've just spoken with Bob Goff and Mr. Newsom if you want to briefly state what Mr. Goff said to you about whether you can talk to us. News and well Mr. Goff said that under the circumstances that it being a legitimate government some committee that he felt it would be appropriate to cooperate to the fullest he did not have any objection to my talking. The main thing that they felt was continued silence toward any assassination buffs reporters this sort of thing but in so far as any committee they had no objection and thought that I should cooperate thank you. As I said previously Mr. Goff has had general counsel the United States Secret Service now if weather break we're talking about the number of probes and you had said the most you saw one picture was two I believe that's what you say is that correct I said the minimum was two. Minimum minimum that's keys right there minimum it could have been three could have been four but minimum two you know what that what they have for these problems I mean you know what you're going to find out now you're going to find out very right now you're going to say very good very good very good very good I said the minimum was two I was the most over this period of time I'm not certain team to meet with three in one picture but this I will not state for sure. Of the probes it says proves but it means probes that you recall where did they enter and where did they exit one was right near the neck and out the back near the neck out the out the back so that's a throat wound and I was actually never heard it and I never heard about that before me neither me neither Larry this is brand new. One was right near the neck and out the back the front of the neck and out the back of the neck the point of entry exit the middle probe extended from. Oh Larry what did you do I switch pages I didn't want you to switch pages I had to go back I'm sorry I thought you just read about it. No no no no no no no no he said the middle of the air what was right near the neck and out the back the front. Yeah the neck and out the back the neck the point of entry exit the middle probe except from the front of the neck to the back of the neck right one was through the chest cavity. All the way through yes wow it seems very good. Very good the entry point now flip it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was reading and it said the same thing at the bottom. I go ahead. A little bit lower in the back then well the point is the back was a little bit lower than the point in the front But it that way that what was going diagonally from top to bottom front to back Repeat that repeat that please so the probe was going diagonally from top to bottom front to back Top to bottom front to back Larry what the hell would this? What the hell would this? Pretty approximately we're going both probes how high you mentioned what was in the front of the neck? The probic extended between grints on the front of the neck and the back of the neck How high on the back of the neck and how high or low from the front of the neck would you say for that probe? Doodson as I said Not studying them for technical purposes it seemed to me that a point on the front was about this point Someone in this area here indicating where the hell was he indicating could you articulate? Bone is this you are pointing to a bone right around the top Right about where the neck tie is okay Adam's apple Adam's apple that would that would have been you know, we all know that was where The entry is Malcolm Perry and Charles Crenshaw and everyone is Point of entry That would be somewhat in that vicinity And let me let me quickly interject here about from Perry who was Eventually eventually was forced and if they talk about this in the in the stone documentary to actually Abandon the frontal shot, you know and go ahead with the government, you know and apologizing and actually Where they paraded him, you know on camera, you know to Admit his error, you know Which never was an error, you know and it's in that stone documentary, but you know one of those things that happens You know when you have to you know told the line, you know and especially in this type of case, you know and be Just one second Yeah, yeah, it's just pause one second Back to the document. Okay We lose our document okay Already we have to make a couple of comments here regarding the importance of this document here that were perusing here and How we are starting to find out things that we had never seen before which is not Easy for the JFK case because usually everything has already been you know research and and Whatever but this is one that is surprising the heck out of us Hopefully yeah, like I said it ponder this everything the Warren commission had to offer Well, what astonishes me is that as much Time and effort is say the three of us for example of investigating the case We've never run across anything remotely like this before never And Larry were you inspired by Doug Horms observations during the You know JFK revisited that that goes to look at it or what led you to it obviously Yeah, when he mentioned I said I want to see that document and it didn't take long to find it really, you know And Mary Farrow's got some stuff on your side It did not take long at all, you know because you know I have my methods and and As soon as I read the first half, you know where you know he was having so much He was putting so much I'm discerning something here They're talking about the throat wound to the back wound Larry Brothers they were turning the entry wound in the back into an exit wound using this probe They were Experiment this is a false of this is a false of occasion is look Right where the neck tie is that would be somewhere in the vicinity for the entry They know how much lower would you say the other probe went through the chest cavity with it six seven inches? So they're they're connecting the back wound which was an entry wound to the throat wound which was an entry wound And and and also they are continuing to desecrate you know JFK's body, you know because if they're doing all kinds of Srowing here and there, you know, it's like no Larry they were manufacturing This was trying to figure out a way to reduce the number of bullets Yeah, and finding trying to find out which was a scenario that best matched, you know, they're probing here and there obviously Yeah, this is this is just ghastly. Yeah, it's very Distressing that's actually As now we see the connecting the entry wound in the throat to the entry wound in the back which was Five and a half inches below the collar just so the right of this final column and they created a probe to connect them They are officially created a transit and notice that Knudsen is going the opposite of what the government wanted us to believe which would have been Back to front, you know, and he's going front to back, you know with the probe But he's going at at a different angle altogether, you know, so yeah Contradicting them every step away Okay, promise me how much lower would you play the other probe went through the chest cabin? I put six seven inches open it closed the photograph as a side view I just classed that to make sure from the side view you saw both probes right Why would you place the points of the probes in the back? You see one was in the neck one was in the back and proximate high up how low I put the back seem to be probably around two entrance to Bulldozer in the back I Think you're right. I think he is. Yes. Yeah, you say I would put in the back. It seemed to it's probably around 10 inches again I don't recall like that Okay, this is this is very strange Okay, I would put it in the back. It would seem to be a problem. I mean around 10 inches there again I do not recall the length of time I cannot say you were kind of pointing to the middle of your back about midway down Would you say midway between the neck and the waist? Where was the other probe this one you just indicated with a probe can out on the Lord Nudes and somewhere around the middle of the back It seemed to me it was right around mid-chest hurty the probe you said you can see coming out of the neck the front of the neck Where was it out of the back of the neck how high would you say it was about the base of the neck? so now In other words, they had two probes for the neck wound one was going straight through Aso and it entered there for the magic mullet trajectory and the other was to try to connect the neck wound to the the back Entry wound is that it how you read that's that's the way I interpret it too I mean but continue because it gets better The probe mid-chest The probe that you said you can see coming out the neck the front of the neck was it out of the back of the neck How would you say that one was about the base of the neck was a body line flat or stiffy knob or sitting on its front When you saw the probes through it It would have been erected to put the probes through because on the back there was no wet could you make out the faces of the people who Rolling the faces of people in background to my knowledge or were no faces could you have their hands there were again I didn't study them whether in the photographs of photos showing a metal grove through the head It's a no not to my knowledge to my knowledge you don't photograph of the head was they show them the wound In the right rear of the head there a little right of center I a wound in the right rear of the head yeah exactly you know the hardware price We're talking about the wound that they now we probably probe through the head Jim Probe through the head I'm going to show you the color autopsy print they are numbered beginning with 26 if If you want to make a comment on a particular print just let me know and I'll double check the number of it So I'll be able to refer to it in the record let the record show I am handing the witness a JFK autopsy photo 6 far one Open to the color brands these are photographs of the autopsy prints. These are not the actual prints Nudes and I was going to say these are not the original prints. I can see it right off the color is off You can't really go you want me to go through them perty You can leave through them and make comments where you feel as necessary Do you see photographs? I recognize might say you recognize nudes and I recall roughly then again I did not study them in detail. I just fan through the negatives The witness has looked through photograph 26 through 29 So far These are roughly what I recall seen and here's a ruler I recall on one that would be the ruler we see on the back photograph Yeah, there you go Witnesses refer to photograph 38F I recall seeing one the photograph the back of the bread there again I will not say it was this one. I will I see that there are others I recall in the back of my mind there was a ruler in some of the photograph perty At the record show some of these are there are multiple prints of the same one let me ask you I did not see these the witnesses referring to the color photographs of the brain He said he had not seen these let me ask you about photograph number 44F was this a photograph you made reference to earlier We had talked about the photograph with a head opened up with a skull open up newton Seems to me that was one photograph that showed I can best describe it to you this part of the hair indicating There seems there is a strand of skin holding this I wonder if he's talking about this skull flap. Yeah, yeah, they might have tried to I yet that's probably because it was skin holding it together. Yeah, but witness is pointing to the back portion of The head I'm turning to photograph 42 and 43F news and this is not what I meant Yeah Purti a photograph of the back of the president said just let me ask you that looks like one you saw that Matched your recollection. This is the back of the president's head here newton there again I did not study it in detail. It seems to me There was a little bit more of the piece of skull hanging in one of the photographs here. This is it Purti we're now referring to photo 37F showing the top of the president's head So it's your testimony today that these photographs are not inconsistent With the ones you saw newton known not at all. Is there anything you saw this not represent by these photographs I feel certain there was one with the two probes one photograph of two probes in the body that is correct I'm returning again to photograph 37 in the area on the right side of the photograph you mirror position Which is the front of the president's body? There are some metal things vaguely in view One which points toward the president. No, that's not it. That's not what I had in mind Could you once again go through the photographs looking carefully to see if there's anything in there that you might have taken to be a metal probe Which was not on this examination pause But the records show the witnesses beginning again and it is beginning again at 26th pause I do not see a photograph here that covers the chest area It was your sense that it was from the side though as a side view Referring to photograph number 40 half showing the front of the president including the front next region Do you see a point on the present which would correspond to one or more the location of the probe that you recall right here Indicating could you articulate right here the neck where the neck tie would be tied So we're talking about a probe going into the the penetration the Entry wound in the neck let the record show that the witnesses pointing to the Tracey austamy incision at the front of the breath well, he's not Right, he's pointing the area where the tracey austamy incision was made But he's not pointing to the tracey austy incision But he's pointing to the hole where the wound went Is he your rack electional ask that was a probe lower than that area is that correct that is correct Looking at the photographs rocks me how much low a point would it be visible in this photograph? I'd be getting to wonder now. I do not see anything here But is it in the back of my mind that was a probe to the body? Is it your present recollection that a body was not opened up in the chest area or could you not tell whether it was opened up or was it definitely not open in the picture that you recall but do not see here there again I was looking quickly for a quality. I did not study it. I do not recall seeing any photograph of the chest being open Do you think it's something you'd remember the present chest was Got in open. Yeah, why is the why is it? I mean, how right how what a dumb question Does it is approximately responded the number of color points you would call that is correct Is it just your recollection? There was one more at least one more than present here It seems to me that one I saw with a probes was strictly a name get to it I do not remember seeing a print of it the first day when we processed a film We were just checking the negatives. I believe it was a black and white. I do not know. I believe it was the negative of the probe You think it was black and white or you think it might have been or you just not sure it was a negative I do not recall ever having seen a print But it seems to me that was a negative and checking the negatives Let me show you from the same photo book at the beginning photographs of the black and white prints You see a perhaps one of these might correspond to your recollection of the black and white negative that you just refer to beginning photographs one F Let the record show the witness is looking through the photograph C crunchyly Is this in the comedy? Let the record show the witness is referring to 13 F it looks like a band of light across the lower portion of the photograph And looking at the negative you have a band here. It has been so doggone long meaning since he looked at these If that is in the original Mr. Purdy I do not think it is in the original because it looks like it's on something from the copies I see it over here now. I do not see it You are saying you do not see it. I do not see it here But at the back of my mind it still seemed there was one photograph the body erect with two probes through it Let me ask you that's the one that's the one that's the one the body erect Okay, two probes through it through it now I'm just so we've never seen we've never been close to seeing the remote no no no no It sounds like this is part of altering the body to fabricate a story alter the body to correspond with a three shot scenario No, no, and he specifies the right side. I don't know if it he's already said it, but he will I wonder if David has ever seen this do we know if David's ever seen this and that's why I wanted to bring him in this We'll be right Larry have you sent me a copy of this doc. I'll send it to David. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah several times You have sent me this And now now the now here is where the amount of exposures Per set is established and you said ten but I remember as I recall it was twelve exposures per set Having seven so we're talking about 84 exposures, which he you know None of them are included in what they are showing him here because he had you know again Robert Knudsen took color photographs and they brought him to take color photographs because At the time they did not have the only had a a black and white photographer who had black and white Capabilities Do you want me to read more of this? I mean yeah, I don't know if it's necessary, but let's go a little bit further towards the end You know Still talking about I mean, I mean, it's you know But there's some let me take it obvious Was there anyone that you know of that may have seen the negative you're talking about that showed the probes anyone else you might suggest We talked to about that. No, it's just in the back of my mind I'm certain that there is one shot of the body A wreck to probe through it and I process the black and white I hung it up I just quickly went down it to make sure I had everything there. I then closed the door Jim and I stayed outside had a cup of coffee or something well the film was drawing after it was dry I would each negative and four by five preserve her took it took the color Which had also dried the same birdie to Jim Fox. So get those black and white negative Not in my present you're This is stunning stuff. I mean, I mean, this is totally Upends, you know the apocard, you know And this is like I said, you know, this is as close to a smoking gun, you know document You can find you're ever going to find and it just so happens that it was suppressed by the HSCA only to be found later on by the uh Why wasn't sir O'Weck jumping up and down about this why wasn't sir O'Weck Why wasn't sir O'Weck pointing out that they reconsidered due to the back of the head This is not only inconsistent with the physicians at Parkland's observation, but with the body But there's the autopsy report which is detailed in mathematical precision This should be a forensic scientist, you know Bonanza This is stunning Did Jim Fox look at those black and white negatives? You're not in my presence Fox You were present when you and he turned them over We went back to it seemed to me it was w16. I'm not certain we did go into w16 But wherever it was we went with a negative we turned them all back You know, the reason you would have a feeling that he had reviewed them was the fact that you assumed that he made black and white prints I assume that Jim is the one who made the prints did sandy spencer or anyone else at navy photographic center Have an occasion to look at the black and white negatives to your knowledge. No Sandy was basically color as I say I went into the darkroom process It went out the door stayed outside the door when it was dry went back and checked them They were dry and we departed Have you had any discussion with any of the other people that you talked about today About what you saw in those photographs? No, never I never discussed anything on these You know why and his wife is very specific in in the stone documentary. She said he was By the book, you know military man, you know, and they said you don't have to talk about this shit Right, you're not talking about a period He was a navy man and he had secret if but or whatever secret clearance and he never opened his mind ever That's what it was great You know and thank God that this document, you know because and and notice, you know all the It obstacles, you know to get him to open up to talk about this And the status of all people telling him to you know to be quiet for 40 years You know, they have to go and talk up to this uh attorney golf To get permission, you know, I mean, yeah, I mean how I mean is this way the same shit happened with the Secret service when they destroyed all those records, you know when the ARB, you know and and and they just destroyed them It said hey, you know so what we destroyed the records from 1963 Uh outside of the Dallas November 22nd, you know the whole year we destroyed and so what you know What are you gonna do about it? You know and that's what happened with the ARB, you know and the secret service said You know the hell of you guys, you know, we're not gonna produce anything that you guys want Hello Have you had any previous experience in mental probes such as this so that you would know what it would look like on a negative The only reason I say I thought was a mental probing right-back collection it was a rod 24 inches long probably three eighths of an inch diameter to appear to be aluminum You can't get any more specific than that the description is right on the mud right there Aluminum or stainless steel there again, it was a negative this size hanging like this To dry pretty you have a lot of experience looking at negatives over the years over the years Could it have been some form of light shadow or a defect in the negative you may have thought was a metal Barrow but you think there was actually an object that there was a picture taken I thought there had to be something in the negative that I do not to believe to have been a defect no It did not look like an artifact of any kind it did not appear that way to me like I said I did not take it down study at over a viewer anything like that. I just glanced at it The wall was approximately this scholar and the negatives were hanging like this indicating I just flipped them around like this indicating not the record show the witness held up some papers from the top As though it was a negative hanging from a line and just turned them and glanced at the papers How I'm glad that Purdy went through through all kinds of Contortions to make sure You know he was this guy was zooming in on what he really wanted him to talk about you know in this deficit Stay it was an artifact is what he wanted Yeah, I don't think that's what Purdy want. I think Purdy actually was doing a good job of Verifying that news and testimony was accurate No, and he I don't see perfority in Purdy I think he's a righteous dude He's like a funnel he's funneling everything you know to this common you know point there at the end That's what he's doing. I was kind of suspicious when he said to look like an artifact. I mean, you know But I understand what you're saying. I agree with you on them He he's eliminated alternative explanations that might be offered retro's You know in anticipation of trying to discredit Newton's testimony And he's doing a hell of a job of covering the alternatives exactly. That's what I meant. He's a good lawyer Working for the law. How certain are you that seven print seven sets of prints were made of the color negatives That is the number that sticks in the back of my mind. Why the number six there? I do not know Jim 84 prints were kind of a 84 freaking prints That we have specific recollection that was the number to us of one or two But a number of sets of prints made is that correct? Oh, yes. They're in the more than one or two Doesn't refresh your recollection to know that no one else with whom we've spoken can recall that we're more than one or two sets of prints I do not mean to amine questioning your word. I just want to point to you that there's a very significant discrepancy Mm-hmm and while yours seems very specific. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Are we back on the right page? No dog on it Actually, I did there you go While yours seems very specific. I just want you to know that there were others who we call that it was otherwise Newton again I repeat it's been about 15 years So mess of my recollection there were more than one or two like I say why the number I will not swear to the number seven but that number sticks in the back of my mind for some reason Apparently there were more than seven negatives printed therefore perty Let me ask you this if you were to be told that someone was absolutely certain had proved that there were only one or two or three sets of prints made What would your reaction be to that would your reaction be well? I guess I just if they are absolutely certain And have good reason to be certain of it. I would not argue with that He would you would you be surprised to find that there what that that was the Gary okay, here we go Case like I say this number seven. I don't know it sticks in the back of my mind You sell well can you show me a document with a pictures that was to be two or three of each? I would say well I still don't know where the seven came from but I will not argue with you You would be surprised if you found that to be the case that there were only one or two or three sets made and not seven is that correct I would not say I would be surprised is it not your present recollection my present recollection is there were more than one or two sets made at this time As we do with each witness we will give you an opportunity to elaborate make any of the comments you'd like to make I think we gave you that opportunity But I asked a few more questions if you'd like to add anything please do so at this time nude son Like I say it's been a long time to the best of my recollection It has been as I said on the number of prints if you have a reason to believe there were two or three I would not argue with it if for some reason this number seven sticks in the back of my mind It could well be wrong but that number sticks in the back of my mind as do that I am certain the black and white negative was one of the body sitting up with the probes through it I do not know I honestly do not know what to say now if that one is missing It's in the back of my mind In fact even to the point that it was a right profile the body Like I said right profile The body was sitting up and looking at the right side profile Pertie I should add newton I will tell you one thing that would clarify it If the negatives were available The film pack is number right on the bottom of the factory and you can go through One through 12 perty Also there's when previous evidence that were either mental probes that were extending totally through the body or that Such probes were photographs through the body. So obviously It would be significant if your recollection was Were correct and it would be of evidence your significance to us I in no way Being a question your view your recollection. I just want you to have it in his historical perspective as to what some others say And you may be absolutely completely correct No, it's a I do not why know why that one sticks in my mind a right profile of the body It would seem to me that if it were as I am sure it was that there would have been something in an autopsy report as to the probes And I cannot conceive in my mind why it would feel that this negative did have it like I said You think there's something subliminal here with the way that Knutson keeps Alluding to that right profile and the probes and everything you know and I My interpretation is Knutson has an indelible recollection of the right side profile with two probes through it And that he is not mistaken I do not believe in and he's so fantastic to the you know you wouldn't imagine making this up Was not made up of course and and I'm I It's obvious to me and I think it is to you and perhaps a Gary two They were experimenting to see how they could connect their various wounds to minimize the number of shots fired You know for very scenario they were they were fucking with a body Oh my god, you know and You're fucking with a body to try to make it come out consistent with a predetermined conclusion desecration of course and and Knutson is Honestly sincerely reporting what he's a military man. He's uh, you know he's He's a company man. What can you say? Yeah, and tell me that has a different meaning today a company man the company is a CIA your company man That's a means a whole different thing There he is what you mean is he was an army guy. He was a straight guy as his life said. That's very important said it his wife So here's Knutson concluding it like I said a couple of times. I did not study these things Overview As you say it was suspended from a clothespin on a wire a hook or a wire I was just flippin them this way I did not see any picture then that would confuse with a picture The waste up picture perty If you should recall anything else whether it's new things in your opinion changing Someone's name should come to mind Provide that information for your contact us. Have you talked to Jim Fox? Yes He didn't recall a black and white negative event. I'm not permitted to give out the substance of the investigation perty said Because that was Knutson asking have you talked to Jim Fox? Right right Confirmation Can you be calling black and white negative but then nature and perty I'm not permitted again Wow But I think you can glean certain things from the nature of my question. I I would infer that means perty thinks he's telling the truth That's not he said if you just look at the print yourself it will you'll say everything I'm saying I told you guys this I told you guys about this document, you know, it's crazy Tell you guys well, we only have a page to go Jim is the one who apparently print the black and white set Nuts and I know the black and white did not go into the photo center for printing So I would assume that Jim did it Why this sticks in my mind that there was one with these two probes or the body that nobody else it calls It puts in question in my mind But yet I could not imagine where I could get the idea from if I had not seen it And yet it is starting to bother me now that there's nothing in the autopsy about it Certainly it would be in the autopsy if it were true, but that's where he's mistaken Right It wouldn't be in the autopsy if they were manipulating the body to figure out how to write an autopsy Repart that would be more consistent with the government's contention of a single gunman. That's where he's being naive here He's assuming the parties all had good intention, which is unquestionably false And he's falling orders At this point I wish I'd say the negatives rather than glance at them at this point I'm confused as wide six in my mind so strongly there was this photograph yet no one else recalls it And it's apparently not in any report if it's not in any report I cannot conceive why it would not be in the report see now that's where his imagination is failing him If it were there It is really bothering me as white does stick in my mind as much and that's because it was real you didn't see it Although for good is the vice is 15 years after the fact Yeah, well, it's a salient features that people remember exactly exactly especially when it's the president of the United States That's right. He's got a body and a photo-applicate pro I bet you you every you could remember every last second We can do every last second. Yeah, you just don't make it Per per perty closes As I said if you you know desired a talk about it or after you've thought about some more of whatever Please feel free to give us a call. We'll be glad to talk about it My appreciation very much for taking the time and coming in particularly since it took a lot longer Whether we thought it with Newtson That's okay I'm trying to rack my mind and why they should stick in my mind so strongly that there was this photograph and yet no other signs of it It bothers me but I cannot think of any other reason that would stick in my mind if I had That's it. Yeah, it's subliminal. I mean he keeps pounding it. You know, he wants you to know that the photos existed You know, right he's pounding it Yeah, and staying within the guidelines of the company You can add the screen share Gary Yeah, let me tell you you know this This is why remarkable, you know, and I have to say that Mr. Knutson here and it's a newtson here was In quite a predicament Okay, because Look, this is a common technique if you're trying to badge or somebody to tell them how everybody else saw something different There are these experiments. We have stupid things going on psychologists have it discovered where you get Group conformity overriding individual rationality and you do something just because everyone else is doing it not because You have a good reason to do the herd the herd in the herd. Yeah, right, right So I I go with dudes and there was such a photograph It was a right profile Iraq with two probes and they were trying to manufacture Transits for bullets that did not exist in the body Would you be surprised you would would you be surprised if our friend Arlen Specter was actually Running that probe show, you know here and there that would not surprise me in the That would be highly explanatory Larry that what's going on here It's called manufacturing evidence I'm disappointed though. I wrote to Doug horn to join us. I'm uh, but of course we changed our date We didn't send him an update that we were doing it tonight. So I told you guys this was Document is this like very very Disturbing to me, you know, I guess I'm gonna send this today, but Yeah, of course you make sure I've got it Larry. I'm not sure I've got it. I've never seen What is gotta Gary Gary sent it to me Gary. I think we've reached the point Right, so so summarizing some summarizing what we're talking about here is that Knutson or nootson or whatever Knutson a a Probes is number three a the number of prints and how many oh sets sets of prints seven and how many Photographs were in each set. We're talking about 12 later on. He said the you know corrected Was 12 so we're talking about 84 color color photographs, you know, and that they brought him in because he Specialized in color and that the black and white photographs Where he saw when they were developing and processing the one with the probes going through and he's talking about several which go Upwards and then downwards, you know from front to back and back to front, you know sort of like what Jim was saying like sort of like Experimenting to see what would be the one that would adjust to conform to you know the Men theory. What do you think? Well, I think what I've gotten out of the whole thing was a very good show It was very difficult to go through knowing how they treated his body like a rag doll Sticking things in it and in any regular art hops and these crazy things wouldn't be going on and thanks to Knutson He actually told us what really happened there and they were just mutilating the president united states No, but he didn't talk he didn't talk of his own volition, you know It had to go through other channels and he had to get permission, you know, so he was a beautiful, you know soldier Gary do you want to take us out? Yeah, I think it was good. Yeah, what do you think? What do you think about the whole thing about the probes and everything and the Sets of prints and whatever Oh, it's obvious they were Trying now different hypothetical reconstructions and fabricating wound transit militants as to Fit what they thought would be the best and they just discarded it because it didn't work Then you couldn't connect the entry and the throat with the entry in the back But they had the probe so they could claim there wasn't a transit that they'd even probed if they went that way But they did it cited it discarded and therefore they wanted to eliminate any evidence that they'd even ever thought about it or attempted Manufacture that scenario so I don't think that's all surprising that no one else rack of wax because once they decided to discard it The only Memory of it or record of it was his memory which stood out because it was such an extraordinary Right, right impactful. Yes, yes, of course Newton's good is gold And obviously it's something that he would I would stay, you know Something like that. I would remember for the rest of my life. Excuse me. Yeah, I agree. I agree Larry You know that is impactful as that, you know that we can you know, I'm glad I'm glad we went through this exercise I think it was instructive I think the corruption of our government knows no bounds Yeah, they got that document hidden for 40 years for a reason all right We'll see you next week. It's been JFK show number 268 And the only place where you're gonna find out stuff like this, you know on a regular basis You got it. So new JFK show for a reason and we we want everyone to join us However the JFK community Has nothing to do with many of our discoveries with rock solid evidence. We'll see you next week Adios And I think you